Topic: Ignition warning light


Mowjo    -- Aug-3-2009 @ 6:43 PM
  Smile Where's Bill, right a little problem I hope, the ignition warning light stays on, on the boat I've just bought, Engines a Thornycroft 1.8 if that helps, the ammeter is showing it's charging at around 13.5 to 14 volts, and the battery is showing it's recieving the charge, but the light stays on, I know it could be something as simple as a bad earth, but I always cost for the worst, anyone got any ideas what else could cause this problem,
Regards Frank,,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


Paladine    -- Aug-3-2009 @ 6:55 PM
  Mowjo, I don't actually know the answer, but with my current boat and my previous one, the ignition light stayed on until I had increased the engine revs to a point at which the alternator was "excited" (that expression was used by an engineer!) Have you tried revving the engine to see if the light goes out?


Mowjo    -- Aug-3-2009 @ 7:21 PM
  No Paladine! I havn't actualy got the boat yet it's still In Cambs, It was just something I noticed when the salesman started it up, he did rev it a bit but the light stayed on,,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


Don    -- Aug-3-2009 @ 7:49 PM
  Sounds like the alternator is going down to me.

clive


Paladine    -- Aug-3-2009 @ 7:57 PM
  Mowjo, he might not have taken the revs up to the critical point.

Those who know about these things won't be surprised with this story, but I had a problem with my Safari 25 shortly after I bought it, in that the batteries weren't charging. It was my first boat so I was a complete greenhorn.

I had someone come to take a look and it transpired that the ignition light had blown (it was broken when I bought the boat and I didn't even miss it - that's how much I knew!). I was told that the bulb is part of the charging circuit. If the bulb isn't working, the alternator cannot charging the batteries.

Once the bulb was replaced I was told that whenever I started the engine I was to increase the revs (in neutral, of course) until the light went out, then reduce the revs and continue "as normal".

If this works for your new boat, all's well. If not.......BILL


donnyvron    -- Aug-3-2009 @ 9:38 PM
  Hi Frank

Try this link for some info and fault finding tips.

T B Training

Some times our ignition light dosen't go out straight away and needs a gentle nudge with some revs.  Yes the bulb is an important part of the charging circuit.

Looking forward to seeing the new boat (assuming you'll still be moored same place).

Graeme


All right so what is the technical name, sharp end or pointy end?


TheCommodore    -- Aug-3-2009 @ 11:21 PM
  My 2.5 Thorneycroft does this all the time, just blip the throttle!

Geof


billmaxted    -- Aug-4-2009 @ 6:09 AM
  You called, Smile  more one for Jason Sonny or Graham, although if the boat is not here yet it will have to wait.  Yes it could be a loose or mucky connection or it might be that a diode is on its way out in the alternator.  A little bit of testing with the right kit will prove the point.

Bill...(The Ancient Mardler)


Mowjo    -- Aug-4-2009 @ 4:50 PM
  Thanks for the Advice Peoples, I have all the testers, but I'll try the throttle trick first, not to worried if it is a diode, I have a place about 100 yards away from me that repairs and recons Alternators, and I've heard he's cheap so even better,, the guy that started the boat for me just eased the throttle up a bit, so I'm hoping it's just a throttle thing as it sounds quite a common thing to happen,,
Regards Frank,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


finny    -- Aug-4-2009 @ 5:03 PM
  Frank my red light did the same ,it also went out with a blip on the throttle.another thing i had to do was to manually switch the key to the on position after it had returned back to position after heating and starting in order to get all the dials working so hopefully in will just be a case of how yours is wired

good luck with the new boat


Finny


Mowjo    -- Aug-4-2009 @ 5:43 PM
  Thanks Finny, got my fingers crossed it just needs bliping, I know the guy turned the key to the far right and held it for a while before he turned it further right to start it, I think the key then sprang back to the pre-heat postition, someone said that in the key straight up position, thats where it should be when you pull the engine stop thingy out, but I'm not sure if there was one or two positions to the left, I just remember that in one of them the instruments all became live, and the other no readings showed at all, I'm wondering if my eyes were playing tricks and it was when the key was in the shut down position the the instruments didn't register, I know I sound pretty thick, but this will be my first Diesel boat and I havn't a clue about anything, I just don't want to risk damaging something before I even get out of the marina,The boats coming here on the 25th August and being slipped at Richo's yard, I'm sure if I have any problems someone there will put me right,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


Baz    -- Aug-4-2009 @ 6:43 PM
  Hiya Frank mate,

The sooner you get another boat to fill the empty slot in the marina, the
better. I've been up there since Friday, and got fed up chasing away
interlopers looking at your mooring.

Have a look at the belt tension Frank, for the light problem.

Baz

"Man who looks back, Has nothing to
look forward to."


Mowjo    -- Aug-4-2009 @ 7:22 PM
  Hi Baz! I tried to get in touch with David about my mooring space, but he's on holiday till Monday week, the guy I spoke had a look at the marina plan and said it's unlikely I can stay where I am, my 23 was the biggest boat in that section as it was, so he thinks David will move me, it's just a matter of where, I'm going to try and stay in that area, cos Judi has dodgy knees and can't walk too far, I'm hoping he'll swap me over and put me on your side as there are a few small boats there where bigger ones could be,,

Frank,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


Baz    -- Aug-4-2009 @ 8:15 PM
  The one beside me Frank, is only about 15-20' long, and that includes
the outboard, in fact there are a few quite small ones there. I'm sure one
of them would change with you as I don't think they're moved too often to
be honest.


Baz

"Man who looks back, Has nothing to
look forward to."


DuartCastle    -- Aug-5-2009 @ 12:05 AM
  Frank
When I start Duart Castle up, I have to give it a good old welly on the throttle to get the charging light to go out. I reckon that is your favourite place to look first. Must admit, it usually fills the marina with a cloud of smoke Smile  Good luck with it mate.
Regards
Russ

JRM


DuartCastle    -- Aug-5-2009 @ 12:05 AM
  Cheers

This message was edited by DuartCastle on Aug-5-09 @ 1:08 AM


Mowjo    -- Aug-5-2009 @ 4:05 PM
  Russ! you had better watch that, or there will be another new notice going up saying No Smoking,,, Playful

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


DuartCastle    -- Aug-5-2009 @ 4:20 PM
  Not kidding about the smoke Frank...Needed radar to get out onto the river Smile
Russ

JRM


16E    -- Aug-6-2009 @ 11:59 AM
  When I was playing (working) with vehicle with alternators the 'ignition' light was wired between the battery,usually via the ignition switch, and an output terminal on the alternator (or the control box on older types).  When the ignition was turned on the battery powered the light, when the alternator was producing voltage the voltage overcame the battery voltage and the light went out.  Hence the need to rev the engine to get the voltage up, or switch the key to the on position if it has been turned back too far.


Mal
16E

..Get on and do it!!  Adventure before Dementia.


Mowjo    -- Aug-6-2009 @ 2:47 PM
  Thanks Mal! seems the general opinion is that I just need to blip the throttle to overcome it, trouble is at the moment the boat is 100 miles away so I can't check it until it gets here on the 25th, but I have enough info now and from what it seems it's the blib job, bad earth or a diode gone, so nothing too drastic or expensive,, Thanks guys,,

Frank,,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


finny    -- Aug-6-2009 @ 3:02 PM
  Frank if you've still got problem on arrival then ask Dave on the moorings to have a quick look over - he really is very switched on with these things

Finny


DuartCastle    -- Aug-6-2009 @ 6:17 PM
  Frank
When you give it a bit of throttle, make sure it not in gear. Evil Grin  LOL
Cheers
Russ boat-power

JRM


Mowjo    -- Aug-6-2009 @ 6:25 PM
  You might laugh Russ, just make sure your not behind me, on the Freeman it's stick forward and pull back on the throttle to go forward, If I forget and pull back on that morse control someone could be in for a nasty suprise,  Evil Grin

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


Mowjo    -- Aug-12-2009 @ 10:32 PM
  Me Again! well the boat arrived at Richo's yard today, tried blipping the throttle and the light still stays on, unfortunatly I forgot to take my leccie tester so have no idea if the batteries are charging, But I have found something and wondered if it could be the cause, the Ammeter was a bit loose on the dash, and I noticed it wasn't working, so after I switched the engine off I had a closer look, the ammeter wasn't even fixed it was just sitting in the hole, I gentle eased it out and noticed that one of the big brown wires was what looked like burnt, or it could be water has got in the cable and corroded it as the cable at this point is very brittle, there is about an inch of exposed cable that is badly corroded and only about six strands of wire still left, so could this be the cause of the Ignition light staying on??
Regards Frank,,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


donnyvron    -- Aug-13-2009 @ 7:26 AM
  Frank

Sounds like a good candidate for the problem.  Used to have an ammeter fitted on ours, we put it in the bin at the earliest oppertunity.  The brown cable in question probably runs from the alternator through the ammeter and back to battery positive (possibly via the starter motor) and is part of the charging circuit.  So quite a lot of cable (ours was about 4 meters long).  We replaced it with a cable from alternator to starter motor, about 1/2 meter long.  

Link to circuit diag

Have been advised on serveral sites to avoid this type of ammeter at all costs, we fitted a battery condition gauge as a replacement.

Graeme



All right so what is the technical name, sharp end or pointy end?


Mowjo    -- Aug-13-2009 @ 5:51 PM
  Thanks Graeme, you just answered my next question about ammeters, I was going to ask if they are really needed, and if it could be replaced with a battery condition gauge, now let me see if I've got this bit right, the brown cable should start at the alternator, runs to the Ammeter, then to the battery, and somewhere in the circuit should be the starter motor, If I remember correctly there is a brown cable going onto battery cut off switch, I therefor presume that I just add a short link of the brown cable between the existing connections on the alternator and starter motor, and do away with all the rest of the brown cable, is that correct???

Regards Frank,,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


donnyvron    -- Aug-13-2009 @ 6:57 PM
  Hi Frank

Yep that's exactly what we did.

And the answer to your next question is 42....

Graeme

All right so what is the technical name, sharp end or pointy end?


Mowjo    -- Aug-13-2009 @ 8:24 PM
  Graeme! are you sure?? the diagram I just looked at said it was 47, Right heres the plan for this weekend, Scrap the ammeter and do a bypass, fit a new ignition switch, replace the two duff battery's, fit a changeover switch, fit a battery condition gauge, then if the light stays on I think it can only be the alternator, but I'll do a few leccie test to see if the battery's are getting a charge first,and ckeck all the earthing, in between i'll be building a new cooker housing as well,taking out the sea toilet, and drinking lots of tea,,

Regards Frank,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


Mowjo    -- Aug-15-2009 @ 8:39 PM
  Well Im still no nearer solving the problem, but the alternator is the old type with the external Voltage regulator and something that looks like a coil, was told this is a rectifier,,I pressume it's a split circuit as there are two positive cables one for each battery, all looking well past there sell by date I think a new modern Alternator is the answer, I was told it's an easy job as there are only three cable on the alternator, a neg and a poss both going to the starter motor, and a smaller cable for the ignition light, if thats the case would I have to remove the rectifier and voltage regulator or can I just ignore and disconnect the cables for them?? as they are in the wiring loom

Regards Frank

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


donnyvron    -- Aug-15-2009 @ 8:58 PM
  Hi Frank

If you are looking for a replacement alternator try this place.

Seahorse Power

We got our from them, 70 amp recon unit, A127 model £46.41 inc VAT & delivery(that was end of 2007).  Our engine is a BMC.  Would take out the voltage regulator. We will be down from next Friday for a week, so if you want to pop round and have a look over our engine be our guest.

As for th ignition switch, might just need some gentle persuasion.

Graeme

All right so what is the technical name, sharp end or pointy end?

This message was edited by donnyvron on Aug-15-09 @ 9:59 PM


Mowjo    -- Aug-15-2009 @ 11:12 PM
  Graeme we're out for the week starting Saturday thats why I'm trying to get it sorted before then, the trouble is I'm not sure what bits to remove, I have an Alternator guy about 100 yards from my house so i'll have a word with him, this ones getting on my nerves I don't usualy get lost on elecrics, but there are so many brown cables and I only managed to get a circuit on two of them
Regards Frank,,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


gallopinhairpin    -- Aug-18-2009 @ 9:31 PM
  Frank,

I don't know if you've got this sorted yet but if not I hope this might help:-
Sounds like your installation is the same as mine, the old Lucas 11AC with separate voltage regulator and field relay. If so the circuit should be as shown in the attached drawing. When the switch is in the AUX position the field winding receives a supply via the ignition light. This provides enough excitation to start the alternator generating. The AL terminal provides an alternating voltage to the coil of the field relay and when you blip the throttle this should rise enough to pull the relay in. When the relay contacts close the full battery voltage goes to the field winding and the voltage equalises on both sides of the lamp so it goes out. As the alternator output rises the voltage regulator starts to control the field winding to regulate the output.
If the light stays on it suggests the relay isn't pulling in. The current for the lamp is going via the field winding so that circuit must be ok (including the brushes). Check the voltage between W1 and W2 on the field relay (on AC setting). I think it should be about 7.5V. If it's present the relay must be faulty or there's a break in the circuit to W1 or W2.

Regards,

Mike.

This message was edited by gallopinhairpin on Aug-18-09 @ 10:43 PM


Mowjo    -- Aug-18-2009 @ 11:09 PM
  Mike thanks for that, but it dosn't look like that there are thick brown cables everywhere, I've just had a thought, first this year, it looks like and Alternator without all the bits on the back, But I'm wondering if it's actualy a dynamo,  because if memory serves me right there are only three connection on it using thick cable, I think there is one Live, one Negative and a smaller wire, I'll post a picture of it tomorrow, I have an Idea now that I've had it all wrong and it is a dynamo,,

Frank,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


BOATERS    -- Aug-19-2009 @ 10:51 AM
  Hi Frank,I would try a mains charge of the batteries before changing them  as when I had the charging problem I thought they were duff but charged them and they maintained well over 12 volts.As all you Experts are around could I indulge and as one question ????
We have left the ignition on when stopping the engine a good few times ,so I have purchased a 12 volt Buzzer which I was going  to wire  the live  feed to the ignition light and then earth so that when the light came on on stopping it would sound the buzzer.Does this sound feasible?  

Roy and Diane

Hope to see you on the river,


gallopinhairpin    -- Aug-19-2009 @ 3:43 PM
  Roy,

If your circuit is similar to the one I posted then in order for it to work I think you would have to connect the buzzer in parallel with the lamp. Bear in mind that this will increase the initial current in the field winding slightly but this might have the benefit of not needing to blip the throttle so hard to get the system charging. At the moment I don't actually know what the rating of the warning lamp is. However I wouldn't have thought the buzzer would take more than a few tens of milliamps, compared with probably a few hundred for the lamp so you should be ok. I'll be at my boat tomorrow so will try to make some measurements then. Could you post the characteristics of your buzzer?

Frank,

If your system is a dynamo it should have a single combined control box comprising a regulator and cut-out. This would have five terminals marked A1, A, F, D and E. The thick wire from the dynamo would be its main output and should go to terminal D, the thinner one would be its field and go to terminal F.
As a rule of thumb a dynamo is long and slim and an alternator is short and fat.  Smile

Another thought: since you say there are three wires, one of which is thin, it could be a later-type alternator with an internal regulator. The thick wires would be the output and ground and the thin one the warning lamp.

Regards,

Mike.

This message was edited by gallopinhairpin on Aug-19-09 @ 5:02 PM


BOATERS    -- Aug-19-2009 @ 6:17 PM
  Thanks Mike ,does that mean the two tails of the buzzer( red and black ) connect to the two tags on the lamps?The buzzer is a 12volt miniture solid state 35MA - 450 HZ - 8DB .only a small item to just make us aware of the ignition .Look forward to your reply. Question

Roy and Diane

Hope to see you on the river,


gallopinhairpin    -- Aug-19-2009 @ 7:36 PM
  Hi Roy,

Yes, the buzzer should be connected across the lamp. Referring to my circuit the red tail would go to the side of the lamp connected to the starter switch and the black to the side connected to the alternator and field relay terminal C2. You probably ought to connect a diode in series with the buzzer to protect it from reverse voltage which could occur if the starter switch is turned off whilst the engine is running, unless it is specified to withstand reverse voltage.

The 35mA for the buzzer won't cause any problems.

Regards,

Mike.


Mowjo    -- Aug-19-2009 @ 10:16 PM
  Roy This is what I mean by Brown Cables everywhere,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


Mowjo    -- Aug-19-2009 @ 10:17 PM
  And the Second one, Unfortunatly I forgot to take one of The Alternator,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


Omnibusbob    -- Aug-19-2009 @ 10:55 PM
  Hi
If your batteries are discharging and the light stays on all the time, have you checked for a shortcircuit somewhere. Maybe someone put a screw through wires. Check for warm wiring.


BOATERS    -- Aug-20-2009 @ 10:40 AM
  See what you  mean Frank,Any further on yet ?

Roy and Diane

Hope to see you on the river,


Mowjo    -- Aug-20-2009 @ 3:02 PM
  None at all Roy, a few people have seen it, one said WTF is that, but so far no-one has been able to shed any light on it, I did find a repair bill from six years ago for some engine work and on it was the remark, "Ignition light staying on", so from that I presume the problem has been with the boat all that time and never put right, and the battery's charge up Ok! but I'm going to ring Thorneycroft to find out what sort of Alternator they recommend fitting, during the off season I'll strip the loom down and re-cable the lot,,
Regards Frank,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


Mowjo    -- Aug-20-2009 @ 4:03 PM
  Right at last I'm finaly getting somewhere, I phoned Thornycroft, seems the set up I have was the first type of Alternator they fitted when the phased out dynamo's, what he can't work out is they were fitted to the 1.5 BMC and not the 1.8 BMC, so he thinks it was fitted after leaving the Factory, he was also amazed that it actualy still worked, now the good bit, (well for me) on this particular set up the ignition light stayed on to show it was charging, if it went out you had a problem with no charge, Now I've never heard of this before, but they built them so I trust the experts, a better bit of news is it's an easy job to change it to a modern Alternator, I have the part No, and it will only cost me £39 + vat, He has recommended the 36 amp one because that is what the engine was designed to run, because of the pulleys and overloading and shreading the belts, and he assures me it's enough to run two 110Amp battery's,

Regards Frank,,,

I'm Not CRAZY, my view on reality is just different to YOURS,,,


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