Topic: BA covid update


steve    -- Mar-2-2021 @ 4:36 PM
  https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/coronavirus-covid-19?fbclid=IwAR0-VwN2u1CWY99Dbr6X96Mp94_McUYMCWnutl4iSmjoRpdgtOATaiZGVuk

steve and vicky
( apparently a moaner)


ruby    -- Mar-2-2021 @ 4:50 PM
  Thanks Steve

Nice and simple then . Good job they didn't try and deal with the concept of a sliding roof on an open centre cockpit .

Graham


Paladine    -- Mar-2-2021 @ 5:00 PM
 
I think I'll wait to see what changes are made to the legislation. After all, that's what any prosecutions are taken under, not the guidance.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-2-2021 @ 8:08 PM
  Just home and read this . Have been waiting and checking every couple of days to see how the BA would interpret the changes and tell us all to get lost in their usual fashion !

I am sure that Boris specifically said that the legal requirement to stay at  home ends on 29 March, and that I looked up the details a couple of days later on the .gov website and the info/guidance for that date said that travel should be minimised where possible. Or words to that effect. When I've had my tea I shall have to go a looking...

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Steve51    -- Mar-2-2021 @ 9:02 PM
  From the .gov.uk website:

Travel

The ‘stay at home’ rule will end on 29 March but many restrictions will remain in place. People should continue to work from home where they can and minimise the number of journeys they make where possible, avoiding travel at the busiest times and routes. Travel abroad will continue to be prohibited, other than for a small number of permitted reasons. Holidays abroad will not be allowed, given it will remain important to manage the risk of imported variants and protect the vaccination programme. The government has launched a new taskforce to review global travel which will report on 12 April.

Steve. CM1 and NR12


Forresters    -- Mar-2-2021 @ 9:46 PM
  Getting totally fed up with this now.

It seems the second home restriction on staying over is removed from 12th April.  We have purchased a static caravan situated around 10 miles from our permanent residence, the pub.  Our boat, in Brundall, is 250 miles away.

The park has confirmed we may stay over at the static from 12th April and as we read it we may stay over on our boat from the same date.  However the travel restrictions remain in place until 21st June?

Have I read the travel restrictions wrongly?  If my reading is correct then holiday hire boats cannot be taken until travel restrictions are removed unless you live local.

The pace of life down there
suits us


ruby    -- Mar-2-2021 @ 9:59 PM
  Pretty certain 12 April is your key date. Stay at home as a requirement ends on 29 March but people are still being asked but not required to restrict travel until June

Graham



This message was edited by ruby on Mar-2-21 @ 11:00 PM


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-2-2021 @ 10:43 PM
  'This is what I read from .gov , its from the full Covid 19 Response - Spring 2021 , the Full Executive Summary

"From 29 March there is an opportunity for some further limited changes....

.... As a result of these changes, people will no longer be legally required to Stay at Home. Many of the lockdown restrictions, however, will remain in place. Unless an exemption already applies, it will not be possible to meet people from other households indoors and many business premises will remain shut. Guidance will set out that people should continue to work from home where they can. People should continue to minimise travel wherever possible, and should not be staying away from home overnight at this stage"

That therefore says to me that whilst the guidelines ask us to restrict travel where possible , we are no longer required by law from 29 March to be bound by the old rule that the BA have quoted as still being in place - i.e. The one about staying in your village, town, part of city etc.  It's clear we can't stay overnight at that point.

So if you need after 3 or 4 months the travel to check your boat which is outside your town or village , you can it seems, but you must  not stay overnight at that time. I wasn't looking at this point to be using the boat for recreation so i didn't look at the permitted activities.

I'll now look for my notes, cos I did make some (!) on other aspects.

Karen





"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Alone1    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 6:23 AM
  And if - by trying to find ways around the rules - and not following the guidance - we make a mess of this, then the unlocking date of 21st June will be put back due to a rise in infection rate.
Be patient and its over quicker. boat-sail

Bob Huppendoun

There would be no life without water!!!


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 8:20 AM
  Not looking to find ways to get around the rules I can assure you.
  
Simply trying to work them out whilst not giving any weight to the  BA interpretations as they have got "form" in this regard throughout Covid  - unfortunately getting it wrong on more than one occasion.

We have followed the covid rules here in this house since last March and have been very isolated in our small village. At times those rules have been exceptionally hard especially when as a family we went through the heartbreak of a sudden death and the very painful  difficulties of a funeral with only a handful being permitted to attend.

Karen



"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Steve51    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 8:45 AM
  Like Karen, we too have stuck to the rules and are in no way trying to circumvent them to suit our own agenda. So, in accordance with HM Government rules, from the 29th March we will be making the 200 mile round trip to the boat (day trips only) in readiness for 12th April when we can once again stay overnight. Can't wait.  Smile  Smile

Steve. CM1 and NR12


Forresters    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 11:05 AM
  Alone1, that seems a pretty random and potentially accusative contribution in the context of this discussion.

Nobody has suggested bending or breaking the rules.  If the law does not stop you from making a journey then it is down to your discretion.  

Let's making an assumption here that we are all pretty sensible people who have followed the rules and prior to making a journey will only do so if it is necessary, not essential that is.

Turning to the BA, where on earth do they get the stay in your village, town or city area from?  If the .GOV then this is a new one as we have been allowed to travel, within reason out of those areas.

The pace of life down there
suits us


Paladine    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 11:11 AM
 
This is the current guidance on travel from HMG https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#travel

"Travel

You must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes).

If you need to travel you should stay local. This means you should avoid travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live. You should reduce the number of journeys you make overall.

The list of reasons you can leave your home and local area include, but are not limited to:
•     work, where you cannot reasonably work from home
•     accessing education and for caring responsibilities
•     visiting those in your support bubble – or your childcare bubble for childcare
•     visiting hospital, GP and other medical appointments or visits where you have had an accident or are concerned about your health
•     buying goods or services that you need, but this should be within your local area wherever possible
•     outdoor exercise. This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)
•     attending the care and exercise of an animal, or veterinary services
If you need to travel, walk or cycle where possible, plan ahead and if you are able to do so avoid busy times and routes on public transport. This will allow you to practise social distancing while you travel."



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 11:50 AM
  Yes, we've read and stuck to those rules. We live in a small village with zero shops. Have to travel about 10/12 miles for a full supermarket, 2 or 3 miles to another village where we have always used the bakery, butcher, etc.

There's a favourite walking area of ours but it's more than a few miles away so during lockdowns (when travel is of course limited) we have stuck to walks within the locality. Getting a bit boring now for 2021! But it is what it is. At least we are fit and able enough to get outdoors and so we count ourselves very fortunate in that regard. A year or more now since we've seen Mikes mum who lives alone in Herefordshire. Zoom is helpful but a tad annoying when we are all trying to speak at once ! May summer bring us all more joy and less stress and upset.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Forresters    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 4:03 PM
  Right I think I have gotten my head around this travel situation and the rules at each stage.  Here's my thoughts

Currently

We are required to "Stay at home", see the link and narrative provided by Paladine.  The bit about not leaving your village etc is a guide to prevent unnecessary travel when leaving home in the circumstances allowed.  So we can leave home to shop for food and if you have shops in your village you should use these rather than travelling further afield.  This was articulated by Karen who described using local shops where possible.

The source of the following is the COVID Response - Spring 2021  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/963491/COVID-19_Response_-_Spring_2021.pdf

From 8th March

There is no change on travel the instruction is "Stay at Home"

From 8 March, the Stay at Home restriction will continue but it will be amended so that people can leave home for recreation as well as exercise outdoors - with their own household, support or childcare bubble, or with one person from another household. Social distancing and other safe behaviours should be followed.

From 29th March

Travel changes from "Stay at Home" to "minimise travel" and "no holidays". There is nothing in 29th March section to elaborate on minimise travel.  I take this to mean "Stay at Home" no longer applies and whilst you can leave home for example to participate in outdoor sports you should minimise the distance you travel to do so.  The instruction to avoid travelling outside your village becomes nonsensical as you are unlikely to have golf, tennis etc in your locality.

The BA on their website entry "Lockdown Roadmap and the Broads" have stated from 29th March "The instruction is to STAY LOCAL (stay in the village, town or part of the city where you live)."  Once again they have placed their own interpretation on the rules and given a false statement which does not exist in the GOV paper.

In essence I can play football, go swimming, golf, tennis, basketball etc etc but only if these facilities are available in my village.

And so it is with boating you can only use your boat if it is in your village.  You might say its guidance only and be sensible but by putting it on their website the BA place those who choose to travel outside their village in the firing line for doing what they are allowed to do.





The pace of life down there
suits us


Paladine    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 4:42 PM
 
Forresters, as you have rightly identified, the BNA have got it wrong AGAIN. I really don't know why they bother. Better to give no advice than wrong advice.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 4:57 PM
  Precisely !

As someone asked recently - is the BA fit for purpose? Well clearly not when an "authority" can't even quote or interpret the rules and guidelines in a national crisis such as the Covid pandemic, and get it wrong every single time!

Either that or there is a purposeful twisting of some sort going on. It has to be one or the other! After all it's not a case of the office junior sending out a message in error or as a joke is it? Senior and therefore well paid "persons"must be responsible for this.

The effect as Forresters rightly mentions, is that people may be castigated or worse for their actually reasonable and within the law actions. Last summer we had boatyards banning customers unfairly and unjustly,  outside of the rules , because they had taken their stance after being guided , wrongly, by the BA !

Not fit for purpose?  or worse -  unfit through intended manipulation and misrepresentation   ? Poll anyone ?

Karen  

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Dodger65    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 7:00 PM
  Ok what is going on at Wroxham
BoAt lights on curtains closed
Next day lights off curtains open
Anybody there??

Keep That Boating Smile
Dodger65


steve    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 8:12 PM
  If your referring to the boat opposite barnes brinkcraft,  there is a livaboard there ,

steve and vicky
( apparently a moaner)


L'sBelles    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 10:14 PM
  Karen wrote "Not fit for purpose?  or worse -  unfit through intended manipulation and misrepresentation   ?"

I think we all know the answer to that question!

At least with 'normal' district councils you get the opportunity to vote out your representatives every few years but with the BNA they, or the Secretary of State, would just fill the void with co-opted JP clones.


Marshman    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 11:00 PM
  As you would expect, the BA have placed their own interpretation on the guidelines. Bit sad really but to be honest did anyone expect them to do otherwise?


L'sBelles    -- Mar-3-2021 @ 11:38 PM
  Of more concern is that these 'directions' are meant to be produced in consultation with DEFRA which infers that either a HMG Department cannot fathom their own guidance or the BNA choose to ignore the DEFRA answers that they do not like.

For comparison this is what the CRT say about the same initial period of time:

"There is no change until Step 1 part 2, potentially from 29 March, when it is anticipated that the official stay at home order will end but people will be encouraged to stay local. Limited local boat movement may be possible but you should avoid travelling if your boat is not located close to where you live, and only those living aboard are permitted to make an overnight stay."

Considerably less draconian in tone!


seventh-heaven    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 12:48 AM
  You may consider the CRT statement to be of a different tone - but it is essentially saying the same thing. Does this not support the position that BA are merely trying to represent the Govt and DEFRA guidance and not trying to frustrate boat owners as many seem to suggest?

AndyH


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 1:12 AM
  Andy , the BA latest statement actually mixes up / misuses old wording relevant to the current lockdown, thrown in with the relevant changes in the lockdown lifting stages that are coming up. Wording that doesn't appear in the governments full statement or even their briefer versions for the next stages. They also infer that come the 29th, there is still that requirement,  which actually is not the case.  The legal requirement to stay home except for certain reasons disappears, or is due to, on that date. There are then guidelines around many aspects, including travel,  but that's a different matter entirely.

I cannot see why, yet again, the BA, in their position, choose to cobble together various bits and pieces of wordings, instead of sticking to quoting the rules verbatim. This in itself, and the previous size ten errors with other rule changes, do them no favours at all. They set themselves up for criticism and mistrust.

Hope you have a good season once everything is fully back to normal.

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


seventh-heaven    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 8:34 AM
  You are assuming that it is a BA message and yet the Canal and River Trust have given the same message including the "Stay local" element.

Both of these organisations took their text almost exclusively from the DEFRA guidance that they were given - if you look at the various sources including CRT, BA, British Marine and others it is clear even the format of the text is similar in the table form it is presented - although it is of note that British Marine have chosen to remove the "Stay Local" element even from the message for 8th March when this is clearly still a requirement in the central guidance.

This issue is that the guidance is still not as clear as we would like, and many people in the Broads local area are very worried that there will be a massive influx of people over the Easter weekend. This, in my view, is clearly not what Govt wants and is almost certainly why they have timed the next stage of 12th April to co-incide with back to school dates after what should have been the Easter school holidays. Ultimately Govt have to take responsibility for that - although I have an element of sympathy in that it is impossible to create national guidance that can exactly fit every situation.

So my point is, I think it is unhelpful to have this narrative that always blames BA regardless - whilst I certainly do not agree with all they do, and am prepared to take them to task in the appropriate forums, I do not see any evidence of this assumed conspiracy against boaters that seems to be the mantra of many on public forums and social media.

AndyH


ruby    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 9:27 AM
  It is good to see a reasoned debate on these pages. Personally, I do not think the BA necessarily are anti boaters in this case but  I do think they are guilty of the new age sin of "cutandpasteitus".

So many organisations have lost the skill of writing and thinking for themselves and revert merely to cut and pasting text already available to them .

I suspect it is because speed is given far more weight in the organisations than clarity or accuracy . Personally I would like to see it right but maybe I am old fashioned .

For my evidence I draw on any communication from a government body or company customer service department where it is obvious a stock of form letters are used.

Graham


L'sBelles    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 10:04 AM
  I do not think it helps when you receive an invoice for the Broads Toll issued on the same day as this statement with a long letter of 'justification' from JP which is effectively cut and pasted from what he wrote on this forum a couple of weeks ago.
I know we all have to pay it, but given the last year we have all had to endure you would think that a little thought to the wording and timing of these things to show some compassion and support for boaters might result in some reciprocation.


Forresters    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 10:37 AM
  To add my name to the list of boaters with no axe to grind as far the BA is concerned.

I haven’t seen what DEFRA have put out but the CRT did not say from the 29th you should not leave your village, the Government don’t seem to be saying it but the BA most certainly are.

It sets up antagonism towards a person who travels 10 miles from their home to go on their boat. Totally unnecessary and wrong of them.

The village 5 a side footie team is discouraged from playing because the outside facility is 5 miles away in the next village  and they have no opponents in the same village. No this is not the intention of this mess

The pace of life down there
suits us


seventh-heaven    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 11:16 AM
  Bit of a no win situation when some want the authorities to be careful and take more time with their words whilst others are bemonaing that fact that it takes a week or more to provide clarity.

I am aware that BA did take some time to try and tailor the DEFRA info to make it more relevant - but I also agree that it is not as clear as it might be but that is at least in part because the BA felt unable to deviate too far from the DEFRA guidance for fear of being critisied!

On the CRT the following is from their COVID page - you will see that it does indeed state "stay local":

"There is no change until Step 1 part 2, potentially from 29 March, when it is anticipated that the official stay at home order will end but people will be encouraged to stay local. Limited local boat movement may be possible but you should avoid travelling if your boat is not located close to where you live, and only those living aboard are permitted to make an overnight stay."

AndyH

This message was edited by seventh-heaven on Mar-4-21 @ 12:17 PM


Paladine    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 11:29 AM
 
Despite British Marine and representatives of navigation authorities meeting with Defra, those authorities have simply muddied the water, by putting their own slant on whatever it was Defra told them. Why couldn’t they all simply publish the Defra advice?

British Marine have put a .pdf on their web site, with a table showing what (in their view) will be the position at the various dates. The author of that .pdf is one Richard Beardsley, who appears to be a business boating development manager with the Canal and Rivers Trust (CaRT).

Yet the CaRT doesn’t provide that information on their web site, preferring to have their own potted version, which is:

“We believe that the Government’s roadmap applies to boating in England in the following ways – please note that this is subject to further confirmation.

There is no change until Step 1 part 2, potentially from 29 March, when it is anticipated that the official stay at home order will end but people will be encouraged to stay local. Limited local boat movement may be possible but you should avoid travelling if your boat is not located close to where you live, and only those living aboard are permitted to make an overnight stay.

In Step 2, from no earlier than 12 April, holiday lets are expected to reopen. We believe that at this point cruising can be done freely and overnight stays on boats and holiday hire boating will be allowed, as long as you are one household or support bubble. The boat movement suspension will be lifted (with boats required again to move every 14 days).

In Step 3, from no earlier than 17 May, indoor mixing on your boat will be allowed with up to six people or, if it is more people, two households.


That version ignores the noticeable change from 8 March, that from that date, outdoor recreation will be permitted (or perhaps there are no canoes, kayak or rowing boats used on their waters).

The Broads No-Authority have taken the table published by British Marine and change it to their own wording, and got it wrong again.

I hope the situation is now crystal clear to everyone.


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Mar-4-21 @ 12:30 PM


warrior    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 11:37 AM
  Can anyone tell me if the rule of 6 people or 2 households that will be the rule on 17th May means that three couples from 3 households can book a boat.  I ask this question as a friend of mine has booked a Narrow boat for a week from the  17th May  for 3 couples from different households  totalling six people.  The ruling is not that clear.  I have scoured the Gov website, the B.A. and the Canals and Rivers Trust and still not managed to get a clear answer.  HELP..:)

Jason


L'sBelles    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 12:04 PM
  Seventh heaven wrote "On the CRT the following is from their COVID page - you will see that it does indeed state "stay local": "

Yes it does but you are missing my point.
The BNA state that there is an "instruction" and a "requirement" to stay local which is false!
The CRT state that you are "encouraged" to stay local which is a different meaning altogether and a more appropriate interpretation of the HMG or DEFRA directive.


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 12:17 PM
  Right, just catching up with this mornings further comments , in particular Seventh Heaven. I personally wasn't referring to the table , I was specifically referring to the final statement in the BA announcement (below) which appears before the table :

" Lockdown roadmap and the Broads

On 22 February, the Prime Minister announced the Government’s plan to begin the cautious easing of lockdown restrictions in England. Since then the Broads Authority, along with other inland waterway authorities, have been in consultation with Defra to produce guidance for boaters. This is shown in the table below.

Whilst the table shows that it is possible for some boating activity to resume during stage one, this is limited by the continued instruction to stay local which restricts travel to and on board a boat.

“Staying in your local area means stay in the village, town, or part of the city where you live.”

So that's what the BA stated, but.....
... the requirement that staying in your local area means " stay in the village, town, or part of the city where you live"  does not appear on anything I have read as published on the .gov website for the roadmap. The government actually state , as I have quoted earlier, that from the 29th March:

"people will no longer be legally required to stay at home"

and they then go on to say:

"people should continue to minimise travel wherever possible and should not be staying away from home overnight at this stage."

Now surely, if they government in their staged relaxing of restrictions did not want us to do anything other than what the lockdown rules state currently about leaving home and and only staying in your village etc, then they would have simply not lifted the legal requirmement to stay at home from the 29th at all. Easter will not provide a holiday environment for anyone as holidays and overnight stays are not permitted and hospitality is closed etc so anyone travelling to the the Broads (or any other location) for the day will not be crawling all over the local facilities bringing disease and dismay. As I understand it people have been visiting for the purposes of walking, kayaking, canoing, paddle boarding etc, during lockdown so are we saying they were all doing that in their own villages only? The likely Easter visitors will include private boaters who are desperate to check their boats not just externally but internally, and this represents pretty much zero risk to those lucky enough to actually live there. They will get on their own boats, touch their own possessions, use their own toilet and make their own drinks. Marinas can provide handgel at security gates and/or ask their customers to follow certain guidelines, perhaps even keeping any facilities like toilets closed until April.

We are all pretty much are decent human beings who respect and understand the need for rules. Private boat owners are also customers , of the marinas and the BA, and in any such situation, never mind the long slog that everyone has been through this last 12 months it is important to engage with people , surely this brings more mutual respect and regard ?

And this brings me back to the BA - throughout this pandemic they have often been too aloof, arrogant in fact, and thus alienating ! This latest announcement follows at least 2 others where they got it pretty badly wrong, and that inevitably has a consequence, which brings us to where we are today - mistrust, anger, argument, and even sometimes a rather sad division between locals and those who bring much to the local economy.

I will again say many thanks to those locally who have offered/given assistance to those of who have not been able to come. You know who you are and I for one will not forget that, whatever the disagreements are about rules and their interpretations.

Finally, I'm reminded of a little phrase my old boss used to say many many years ago when I was a young trainee in a sometimes difficult job -  always try and tell them what you CAN do, rather than focussing on what you can't. It will get you and your message further and keep communications positive.  

Karen

EDITED for typo

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Mar-4-21 @ 1:52 PM


seventh-heaven    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 1:28 PM
  On the BA Corona information page it clearly states where the Stay Local definition comes from and it is in Govt advice.

“Staying in your local area means stay in the village, town, or part of the city where you live.” Govt National Lockdown Stay at Home Guidance

Your point about why they have removed the stay at home restriction is in my understanding because there is a move to begin to allow recreation more genreally rather than the current restriction only leaving home for essential things including limited excercise.

I take your point about private owners generally not being a risk, but unfortunately as we have seen in the media there is enough of our population that can't be trusted to manage themselves and the risk they create and therefore the regulations sadly have to be down to the lowest common denominator. If you allow sensible people to travel more widely you have to be prepared to have everyone do that with the sadly predictable consequences.

Whilst I am very privileged to live here there are consequences on travel for us as well. My Mum and my in-laws both live in Yorkshire and could really do with some support from us at that moment. We have debated long and hard about when it is appropriate to visit them - I conclude not before 12th April when you consider the wider guidance and what it is trying to acheive.

I am fed up with all this as much as the next person - but it is absolutely clear that people can travel to their boats or hire boats from the 12th April - is it really that much of a sacrifice to wait those extra couple of weeks for the good of the whole?

P.S. It is good to see the reasoned good natured debate on here (and it has caused me to shift some of my views!) - elsewhere it has been shutdown with a statement just to follow Govt guidance. As our debate is showing - if it was only that simple!!!!

AndyH

This message was edited by seventh-heaven on Mar-4-21 @ 2:32 PM


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 1:45 PM
  Quick reply Andy as about to go out for daily excercise whilst it's Mikes "lunchtime" ( he's working from home).

I'm not disputing that the wording about local meaning your village town etc exists. And that's why our walk today is 2 miles from our house. What I'm saying is that I whilst that wording is  part of the lockdown rules currently,   it does not appear as far as I can see  in the rules (expected to be applicable) for the lockdown easing in terms of what is stated by the government for the stage due to come in from 29th March.

I agree we are having a good and reasoned debate and I'm grateful for that. I also agree the rules are rather muddied in places and can't account for every possibility. Hope you get up to see your family soon , we are in the same boat ( forgive the pun!)

Take care, Karen



"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Mar-4-21 @ 2:58 PM


PAMPATHA    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 1:52 PM
  The RYA have just published a Covid 19 road-map to a return to boating.  This seems to put the information in clear and concise manner that everyone should be able to understand.


Loughrigg    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 2:11 PM
  Here's the RYA pdf....click the link.....RYA

Mike

'Who says you can't get 43 boats on Ranworth Island'
'Ubique Loquimur' - We Speak Everywhere!


L'sBelles    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 2:32 PM
  Blimey! The RYA guidance is hardly a precis, is it?
However, it does seem to win the prize for being the most lenient interpretation so far stating:
"People will no longer be legally required to Stay at Home, although we are still being advised to minimise travel wherever possible" from March 29th.

I can't imagine even on a boat forum like this one too many people shall have a yacht club in their "local" environs!


Paladine    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 3:06 PM
 
Warrior wrote, ”Can anyone tell me if the rule of 6 people or 2 households that will be the rule on 17th May means that three couples from 3 households can book a boat.”

The Rule of Six means that more than six people together (with a few exceptions) is unlawful. The other bit is self-explanatory, no gathering of more than two households, regardless of the total number in the gathering.

So two households could gather, provided the total number of people did not exceed six, but if six people gathered from three or more households that would be illegal.

I think your friends might have to think again.


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


seventh-heaven    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 3:15 PM
  So there is another example where the clarity is not great! I had assumed that the rule of six was as before and could be six individuals!

More reading required!!

AndyH


Marshman    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 3:36 PM
  I don't think that the RYA interpretation is lenient - its merely repeating the guidance. "Minimise travel" is not the same as "stay at home" If I have a need to travel 200 miles then thats "minimising" travel if I have that need - I struggle anywhere that says I must still "stay at home"!

Now I have not any need to travel 200 miles as far as I am aware but if such a need arose, I would, taking necessary precautions en route. And at the same time, as its local I shall go down to the boat!!

As Andy said, it is disappointing to see this debate being stifled on another platform! Not sure I could see the need at that time. Surely thats what Forums are for - I didn't see it getting out of hand albeit a little repetitive.


Paladine    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 3:36 PM
 
seventh-heaven, you might like to take a look here https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/update-on-new-social-distancing-rules

Last September, Matt Hancock made a statement to the Commons, in which he said,

"First, Mr Speaker, we are putting in place new rules on social contact.
We have listened to feedback – from the public and the police.
And we are simplifying and strengthening the rules, making them easier to understand and easier to enforce.

In England, from Monday, we are introducing the rule of 6.

Nobody should meet socially in groups of more than 6 – and if you do, you will be breaking the law.
This will apply in any setting, indoors or outdoors, at home or in the pub."


He went on to mention some exceptions to that rule.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Paladine    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 3:40 PM
 
I have only looked at the parts that relate to this discussion, but the RYA advice seems to be very balanced. I would question this bit, though:

Does working on my boat count as recreation and is it therefore a reason to leave home?

We do not currently believe that general boat maintenance falls within the intended definition of recreation, but where maintenance is essential to prevent risk of harm or injury it may qualify as a reasonable excuse for leaving home.”


Where can I find the HMG “intended definition of recreation”? As far as I am aware, ‘recreation’ has never been defined in any of the HMG Covid legislation. It's a rule of law that when no definition has been included in legislation words are given their usual meaning.

I have found the following dictionary definitions of ‘recreation':.

”A way of enjoying yourself when you are not working;

Something done for pleasure or to relax, or such activities generally;

Things that you do in your spare time to relax.


The ONLY reason I own a boat is for recreation, whether that’s by way of chugging down the river, or spending time cleaning/adjusting/improving/repairing it. That is not looking for a way round the regulations, it is a factual statement regarding the purpose of my boat.

Does any private owner here have any other reason for owning their boat?





"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


ruby    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 4:54 PM
  Preaching to the converted over here. I have more fun trying to make it work better whilst on the mooring than many of the trips out we have .( When we were allowed to have said trips of course. )

Indeed my wife refers to the boat as my remote shed with all that implies .

Graham


seventh-heaven    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 5:29 PM
  Paladine - thanks for the link - however that appears to re-enforce my thinking that a rule of 6 is a rule of 6 and has no direct realtionship to households. I thought that I understood that the 2 households element of the rule is to allow more than 6 to be together if they are only from 2 households?

AndyH


Paladine    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 5:44 PM
 
seventh-heaven, everyone must make their own assessment, but further into his speech Matt Hancock explained:

"For example, if a single household or support bubble is larger than 6, they can still gather."

That suggests to me that there is no problem with 6+ if they are from the same household, or a household plus support bubble. If there is more than one household (not including the bubble) involved, then the Rule of Six comes into play and there is a maximum of two households.

Examples:

Up to 3 from one household plus up to three from one other household - OK.

3 from one household plus one from 2nd household plus two from a 3rd household - NOT OK - as the maximum number of households gathering has been exceeded.

However, I have read in a number of on-line newspapers that six people from up to six different households will be allowed to meet up outdoors from March 29. I have seen nothing in the HMG guidance to support that interpretation.

Edited to add:


Continuing the trawl of guidance I found this, which is more detailed, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-response-spring-2021/covid-19-response-spring-2021-summary#step-1---8-and-29-march , from which I have extracted (with my emphases):

Changes on 29 March

Social contact


The evidence shows that it is safer for people to meet outdoors rather than indoors. And this is why from 29 March, when most schools start to break up for the Easter holidays, outdoor gatherings (including in private gardens) of either 6 people (the Rule of 6) or 2 households will also be allowed, making it easier for friends and families to meet outside.

Step 3 - not before 17 May

Social contact

As part of Step 3, no earlier than 17 May, the government will look to continue easing limits on seeing friends and family wherever possible, allowing people to decide on the appropriate level of risk for their circumstances.

This means that most legal restrictions on meeting others outdoors will be lifted - although gatherings of over 30 people will remain illegal. Indoors, the Rule of 6 or 2 households will apply - we will keep under review whether it is safe to increase this.

As soon as possible and by no later than Step 3, we will also update the advice on social distancing between friends and family, including hugging. But until this point, people should continue to keep their distance from anyone not in their household or support bubble.


But there is still no sign of the legislation that will put all this into effect.



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Mar-4-21 @ 8:10 PM


Jeremy-Aslan    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 9:19 PM
  It looks like Paladine edited his message, and I was looking for claritry  -  a bit like SeventhHeaven.  It may not affect me personally, but friends of mine are closely following what is allowed.

My understanding was that from (or not earlier than) 29th March it will be possible for social gatherings outdoors to be EITHER up to six people from as many different households as you like OR any two households, where there can be as many people as you like in each household.

So, I think it means you could have:
a. A couple hosting a gathering (a barbie, perhaps) in their own garden, with four friends from four outher households
or b. Two families, each with three children, meeting together outdoors, a total of ten people.
Is that right, or have I missed something?


________________________________________________________
'We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty' (HHGG)


Forresters    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 9:21 PM
  The rule of six as has been indicated before limits the number of individuals meeting from multiple households to 6. If more than 6 then the maximum is two households (household includes bubble member)

Household A 2 people, HB 1 person & HC 2 = 5 in total is allowed as less than six

HA 3 persons, B 2 @ C 2 is not allowed as it is 7 from 3 households

3 couples from 3 households (6 in total) would be allowed.

The other issue to minimise travel from 29th March has been muddied by the BA using the instruction to avoid leaving your village as used in the stay at home requirement. Minimise travel becomes subjective but I think to most of us will be interpreted to mean travelling long distances is not on as it increases risk through tiredness as you can’t stay over and possibly means a number of stops. The other aspect is frequency of travel. So going to your boat every day is excessive.

Being subjective one persons right is another persons wrong. I repeat the BA using the stay at home guide for distance travelled really opens up antagonism. “Look at him travelling from home in Wroxham to his boat in Horning!! The BA are saying he should not leave Wroxham”. It is just wrong

The pace of life down there
suits us


steve    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 9:33 PM
  This help also

steve and vicky
( apparently a moaner)


steve    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 9:34 PM
  No2

steve and vicky
( apparently a moaner)


steve    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 9:34 PM
  No3

steve and vicky
( apparently a moaner)


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-4-2021 @ 9:48 PM
  Yes , that's been my point all along Forresters -  that the BA used the lockdown defined version of local when it isn't relevant in the new rules (as expected) from 29 March.

You also raise one other point for me - does "minimise travel" mean minimise the length/duration of travel, or instances of travel ? Or just minimise it overall, either way?

I know what I think....

Karen



"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Mar-4-21 @ 10:50 PM


Dreamer    -- Mar-5-2021 @ 11:23 AM
  My head hurts!
It really is quite understandable that people inadvertently break the rules, too many ways to misinterpret them. I hope the boat hire yards have managed to decipher the rules correctly and don’t fall foul of them!


warrior    -- Mar-5-2021 @ 1:26 PM
  Many thanks for your answer Mr. P.   It is still a bit unclear.  Perhaps the wording should have been " up to 6 people from 2 households,"  "instead of up to 6 people or 2 households".  Maybe its just me being a bit slow on the uptake.   Smile


Jason


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-5-2021 @ 2:09 PM
  So, hot off the press, I'm told the BA have updated their advice , but still misquoting advice about travel, insisting that even from 29th "travel must be local".

I am about to have a zoom meeting but will check back later....

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-5-2021 @ 2:54 PM
  I've been sent this :
(Updated page from BA website yesterday, I understand)

"Step 1.2 -  29 March
Whilst some boating activities are permitted at this stage, movement is limited. The instruction is to minimise travel where possible and avoid travelling long distances.

Private boats
Private boating permitted for recreation for a single household or bubble (if vessel is enclosed), or for 6 people / 2 households per boat (if vessel is open air, provided it is outdoors and social distancing can be maintained between people from different households).

There remains a requirement to minimise travel and stay local.

Self drive day hire
Private boating permitted for recreation for a single household or bubble (if vessel is enclosed), or for 6 people / 2 households per boat (if vessel is open air, provided it is outdoors and social distancing can be maintained between people from different households).

There remains a requirement to minimise travel and stay local."

I spot a distinct inference there that the majority of toll payers should still stay away. The inclusion there of the term, yet again, that we are actually required to stay local is added by them to the government wording to "minimise travel"

I am a bit tied up at the moment but had to post what I know asap.

Sometimes I think Norfolk can shove off , forgive my bluntness, but I continue to be reminded of the inadequacies of the organisation running the show on The Broads.  

Karen

Edit to add another phrase I've just notice in the BA wording, sorry for doing this in a bit of a rush,  but they include:

"The instruction is to minimise travel where possible and avoid travelling long distances"

I haven't seen the wording " avoid travelling long distances " in anything from the government . But if anyone can find out, please add a post with the relevant link....

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Mar-5-21 @ 3:58 PM


Steve51    -- Mar-5-2021 @ 3:08 PM
  According to .gov.uk

"The ‘stay at home’ rule will end on 29 March but many restrictions will remain in place. People should continue to work from home where they can and minimise the number of journeys they make where possible, avoiding travel at the busiest times and routes"

Nothing about staying local.

Steve. CM1 and NR12


Paladine    -- Mar-5-2021 @ 3:32 PM
 
Doh!

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-5-2021 @ 3:45 PM
  Yet another bit of "spin" from the BNA then!  

As I thought but as was doing this between other things I didn't want get on me high horse without double checking!

Let's just boycott them and pay no regard to their assertions whatsoever. It seems we are more capable of reading and understanding things than they are!

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Paladine    -- Mar-5-2021 @ 4:13 PM
 
Karen&Mike, I've disregarded the BNA's advice for a long time. All they have done in 'updating' their Covid advice is to confuse matters even more.

In their handy .pdf table of the various steps in the roadmap, apart from the incorrect advice already pointed out, under the heading Step 1 they provide two columns, one headed 8 March, the other 29 March. The next column is headed Step 2, No earlier than 12 April.

Under Step 2, in the section relating to Private Boats, they say "Same as step 1 plus lifting of ban on overnight stays away from home allows for single households/bubbles to stay away overnight on boats". So does that mean Step 1 column 1 (8 March) or Step 2 column 2 (29 March)?

They just won't learn, will they.



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Paladine    -- Mar-5-2021 @ 4:22 PM
 
The enabling legislation for the changes on 8 March has now been published. The relevant section is at the end of page 4 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/247/pdfs/uksi_20210247_en.pdf

The change is the addition of recreation to the list of reasonable excuses for leaving your home, as follows:

d) to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation—
(i) alone,

(ii) with—
(aa) one or more members of their household or their linked household, or
(bb) where open air recreation is being taken as part of providing informal childcare for a child aged 13 or under, one or more members of their linked childcare household, or

(iii) with one other person who is not a member of their household, their linked household, or their linked childcare household…
"

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Mar-5-21 @ 5:31 PM


Forresters    -- Mar-6-2021 @ 9:00 AM
  To add a further aspect to this discussion and a by the by first.  I think I may have said before we have bought a static about 10 miles from our permanent residence and note there is the mother of all arguments in progress on Facebook about the 29th saying you shouldn't travel to your van you should stay local.  So not just boating.

For anybody, particularly the BA, who think from the 12th minimise is lifted and we can flock to our boats - it isn't!!!!  The only change is that longer journeys become more manageable because by staying on the boat you cut your journey in half.

This minimise travel if used to prevent or castigate people from travelling to their boats for whatever reason and home in the same day from the 29th, also stands from the 12th and does not disappear until step 3 on 17th May.

What the BA say on travel;
29th "There remains a requirement to minimise
travel and stay local."
12th "Silent"
17th "Silent"

What the .GOV paper says;
29th "Minimise travel. No holidays."
12th "Minimise travel. No international holidays."
17th "International travel - subject to review."

The difference is to allow holidays from the 12th.

Well from the 29th travelling to the boat is allowed just not to holiday on the boat.

For the record, because of circumstances we will not see our boat until May but aside from that being 250 miles away is a major issue.  I see no reason why those  living a shorter distance away should not visit their boat from the 29th.

The pace of life down there
suits us


Dzign    -- Mar-6-2021 @ 10:03 AM
  I do hope that we fare better than the Isle of Man has

L


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-6-2021 @ 12:22 PM
  It's interesting to note that elsewhere ( again I've been given this info as I am not a member of any other groups or forums ), a discussion on this very subject has been completely closed down/ locked by admin, with an instruction to all members to follow the government guidelines and the boating specific BA advice!  Somebody wanting to lick BA bottoms for their own ends maybe?

Anyway, as has been said earlier, it is great that we have given this topic a good "airing" here , and will continue to do so as it develops.

Karen



"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Paladine    -- Mar-6-2021 @ 2:08 PM
 
What does ‘local’mean?

If I might play devil’s advocate for a moment...

There is a major difference between what is law and what is guidance. HMG explains thus:

What is the difference between legislation and guidance?

To find out exactly what the rules are during the coronavirus pandemic, you need to look at both legislation and government guidance. Legislation sets out legal obligations and restrictions that are enforceable by law. If you do not abide by the legislation you are breaking the law. Guidance and advice is likely to be based on legislation (in which case it will be legally binding) and it might offer the best or most appropriate way to adhere to the law.

The law is what you must do; the guidance might be a mixture of what you must do and what you should do.


So, unless particular guidance reflects what the law actually says, it is not enforceable.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020  is the governing legislation. It contains no reference to ‘staying local’, nor is ‘local’ defined therein.
  
The Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Dame Cressida Dick, asked for clarification of what ‘local’ means, after the PM went for a 7 mile bike ride, which was deemed to be lawful, but two women in Derbyshire were handed £200 FPNs for driving 5 miles for exercise (the FPNs were later rescinded).

These are some of the comments made by Ministers at the time (Jan 2021):

Home Secretary, Priti Patel: ...people should "exercise their judgment" when taking exercise and stay away from other people.

The Policing Minister, Kit Malthouse: ..."local means you can get there under your own steam". He added that a bike ride of 70 miles would be "fine in some circumstances" but said the public were expected to recognise what "local" meant. (Daily Telegraph 12 Jan 2021)

Cycling UK (with other cycling organisations) asked the Department of Media, Culture and Sport for clarification. The Minister for Sport, Nigel Huddleston, responded:

"As you are aware, the government’s current guidance regarding outdoor exercise states that people are allowed to leave their home to exercise outdoors, and should remain as local as possible.

As you state, people’s circumstances are different and so this guidance relies on people to use their common sense to determine what is and is not a reasonable distance for their outdoor exercise.

As we navigate these necessary new restrictions, we remain clear on just how important exercise is to people's health and wellbeing, whilst staying safe at home."  (Cycling UK)

Speaking about the Derbyshire case, human rights barrister Adam Wagner said: "There is no law against travelling to exercise. The guidance is not legally binding and the police have no power to enforce it unless it is reflected in the lockdown regulations which in this case it is not."

Everyone clear now? Good, so the next question is, how long is a piece of string?



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Dzign    -- Mar-6-2021 @ 5:10 PM
  "If I might play devil’s advocate for a moment..."
As if lol


L


Forresters    -- Mar-6-2021 @ 7:48 PM
  So I have read said locked topic elsewhere. The majority are vastly of the same view as here that the BA advice seems incorrect and the suggestion is to follow GOV advice. I can’t understand why the discussion was closed down unless there was a load of comments deleted.

Just shows the depth of feeling hankering on getting back to where we are most at home. Nobody is looking to bend or ignore rules we just wish to understand the allowances and move on accordingly.

This period has shown to me the difference between those of us who use our boat in retirement as a bolt away or second home as opposed to use as a holiday home.  The government treat boats and caravans as holidays rather than homes.

There’s a massive difference to us and the feeling of imprisonment and denial of liberties is debilitating because you become so used to escaping to your alternative home in a regular basis rather than treating it as a holiday.

We will all get there in the end

The pace of life down there
suits us


pargeandmarge    -- Mar-7-2021 @ 10:28 AM
  Hi All
Old Parge had the Oxford Jab yesterday and is suffering a chronic side effect which is the need to be pampered.
Regards Parge  Playful


Alone1    -- Mar-7-2021 @ 11:49 AM
  The BAs advice is exactly that - advice and guidance as they have had it given to them by DEFRA. Other organisations have done the same - some with slightly different interpretations.
The police are the only ones who can enforce the law on COVID rules.

So - you follow what you think the guidance/advice/interpretation means - or your own interpretation. If you get it wrong then you may get a visit from plod if someone sees fit to report you for what they have interpreted you to be doing. You only have to read the press to see how busy the police are enforcing the rules.

I will be out excersing/recreationing on my boat soon. Luckily I can walk to it and it sails.

Enjoy!  Smile  boat-sail

Bob Huppendoun

There would be no life without water!!!


Marshman    -- Mar-8-2021 @ 9:31 AM
  New and subtly amended advice here

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/coronavirus-covid-19


Alone1    -- Mar-8-2021 @ 12:39 PM
  Environment Agency Update:

Coronavirus
Update for waterway users - 5 March 2021
Following the Prime Ministers announcement of the 4 step road map for lifting Coronavirus
restrictions, this is our updated guidance for boating customers, which we are issuing ahead of
8 March when the Government begins to cautiously ease lockdown restrictions in England.
Each step of the roadmap will continue for at least 5 weeks to allow the Government to make
an assessment before easing restrictions further. Further guidance on the Government
roadmap can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-responsespring-2021/covid-19-response-spring-2021-summary
What this means for our waterways
- For all steps of the Government roadmap, those who live aboard their boats can continue to
travel to access essential services and facilities.
All boating activity on our waterways should follow the guidance in the Table below. From 29
March, as part of the first step, 'Stay at Home' restrictions will be lifted, however Government
guidance instructs you to continue to stay local where possible and minimise travel throughout
the first 3 steps of the roadmap. “Staying in your local area means stay in the village, town, or
part of the city where you live.” Guidance – National Lockdown: Stay at Home updated 22nd
Feb 2021 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home. This means that
during the first step from 29th March, people should avoid travelling further than is reasonably
necessary on board their boat or to take part in their waterway activity.
All references to permitted activities must still adhere to the latest social distancing rules.
COVID-Secure guidance will also remain in place up to and including Step 3 (subject to a
proposed review of social distancing rules ahead of Step 4).
Boats and businesses must not cater for groups larger than the legal limits at each step unless
meeting the conditions for a permitted organised gathering. These will be reintroduced at Step
2 for outdoor gatherings and Step 3 for indoor gatherings.
Anyone making plans for later in the summer should follow government advice carefully and
check GOV.UK to ensure you are keeping yourselves and others safe.
Our service at this time
We will continue to support this national effort through these challenging times and will, as
always, make protecting the safety of our customers and staff our top priority.
Our staff continue to work, managing and maintaining our waterways within the safe ways of
working we have implemented over the past year. As we start to follow the roadmap out of
Government restrictions, our operational priorities will be:
- Ensuring safe navigation, by inspecting each reach of our waterways for obstructions and
marking them accordingly.
- A safe, phased approach to resume assisted passage in line with government advice that
gives staff time to adjust to new ways of working.
- Recruitment of Environment Agency seasonal staff, aiming for their return on 1 April.
As we start to move out of the current lockdown, some local restrictions may still be in place
and assets could be subject to closures for maintenance. Our level of service may also be
affected due to some staff who are vulnerable and still need to shield. This means some taskscustomer service line 03708 506 506 floodline 03459 88 11 88
incident hotline 0800 80 70 60 Page 2 of 3
may not be carried out straight away, including assisted passage at some locks, however
wherever possible we will maintain essential services and facilities for those boaters who live
aboard and who have to make essential journeys.
To keep up to date with local information, see the following websites:
River Thames: http://riverconditions.environment-agency.gov.uk/
Anglian Waterways: https://www.visitanglianwaterways.org/
River Medway: http://allingtonlock.co.uk/home.php
For the latest guidance on Boat Safety Scheme certificates, please see the Boat Safety
Scheme website.
We will continue to update our guidance as the national situation develops so please do keep
checking the guidance via this link for the latest information on restrictions.
Andy Wilkinson
National Navigation Manager

This guidance defines 'local' boat-sail

Bob Huppendoun

There would be no life without water!!!


L'sBelles    -- Mar-8-2021 @ 12:40 PM
  Still couldn't quite bring themselves to amend this phrase "There remains a requirement to minimise travel and stay local" under step 1.2 which the consensus on this forum believe to be factually incorrect. The "requirement" does not include mention of locality in the accepted lockdown definition but states "stay local where possible".
Not suggesting we all rush out and flout the guidance but HMG 'guidance' appears as BNA 'requirement' too often.
Even when BNA attempt to correct their initial mistakes they just appear to dredge the hole deeper and continue to alienate people!



This message was edited by L'sBelles on Mar-8-21 @ 1:49 PM


L'sBelles    -- Mar-8-2021 @ 1:10 PM
  Alone1 wrote "This guidance defines 'local'"

But does it when it includes the statement "This means that during the first step from 29th March, people should avoid travelling further than is reasonably necessary on board their boat or to take part in their waterway activity."?

This defines nothing and leaves the choice of travelling or not to an individual's discretion.

How much is "reasonably necessary"?



This message was edited by L'sBelles on Mar-8-21 @ 2:12 PM


Paladine    -- Mar-8-2021 @ 2:20 PM
 
Alone1 wrote: ”This guidance defines 'local'”

No, it doesn’t. It simply points to the HMG guidance (not enforceable), which suggested what ‘local’ means.

But a number of senior government ministers, when asked for clarification, hid behind such meaningless comments as:

”people should exercise their judgment;
local means you can get there under your own steam;
the public were expected to recognise what "local" meant;
this guidance relies on people to use their common sense to determine what is and is not a reasonable distance for their outdoor exercise.”


But, in any case, the Broads No-Authority has got no jurisdiction nor enforcement powers in relation to the covid restrictions, and should keep out of a matter it has no authority in and, apparently, doesn’t understand. It is clear to me that they wish to keep as many boaters as possible off the water for as long as they can.

Without going through their amended advice (which I will ignore, anyway, not because I intend to break the law, but because I have more confidence in my own ability to interpret the legislation than theirs) line by line, consider this point:

BNA interpretation:

”Private boats

Private boating on an open air boat permitted for recreation for a single household or bubble, subject to the overarching requirements to stay local and minimise time spent away from home.”


Advice from the Yacht Harbours Association (a professional body for marinas):

”Privately owned boats can be used by a single household/bubble where participants remain outside except to access toilet, for safety reasons or to navigate.

The amendment to the legislation, effect from 8 March (keeping to the bit that affects boating) is that we are now allowed to leave home:

"d)to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation—
(i)alone,
(ii)with—
(aa)one or more members of their household or their linked household..."


So if I want to visit, for example, How Hill, which is about 2 miles from my house as the crow flies, for open air recreation (or even exercise) that’s OK (the PM cycled 7 miles and that was OK). If I want to drive there (in an enclosed car), that’s OK as well, ‘cos mode of transport has never been considered by the legislators. But the BNA is telling me that I can’t go to the same destination, for the same purpose, in my (enclosed) boat. My mooring is well within that 2 mile radius.

I won’t test the forum’s word blocker by writing what I think of that!


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Mar-8-21 @ 3:20 PM


Paladine    -- Mar-8-2021 @ 7:40 PM
 
Herbert Woods is offering day-boat hire to anyone only from the Norfolk area, as that is their interpretation of 'local'.

So if you live in the Walpoles, which are the other side of Kings Lynn, about 55 miles from Potter Heigham, in a straight line, you can hire one of their boats. But if you live in Beccles, Suffolk (within the BNA's executive area), you can't hire one, even though it's only 17 miles as the crow flies.

They've based this on the BNA's 'authorisation' on the BNA web site.

Confused

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Marshman    -- Mar-8-2021 @ 7:57 PM
  There is probably a word to define that kind of logic - but somehow my fingers just cannot type it!!!!

Perhaps they should just stand aside and not make these pronouncements and just let people make their own minds up on what they can or cannot do - after all the Government announcements are also confusing but why do the BNA muddy the waters still further?

If people then make the wrong decisions , its then down to the individuals.


Karen&Mike    -- Mar-8-2021 @ 11:55 PM
  So, the  BNA throughout this Covid pandemic, have:

- repeatedly instructed private boat owners,
- at varying times and to varying degrees
- as well as directing other organisations/businesses to do the same, - to stay away,
  even when the legal requirements did not support this.

With us being not local they have effectively barred us from using our boat at various times. So, on that basis I feel I would be perfectly entitled to pay only a proportion of the river tax for 2020 and 2021 to account pro rata for the times they prevented me from being on the river. This being not a government restriction , but their own!  Either that or they can *** off and I will do what the government asks and ignore the BNA . They can't have it both ways ( to quote another current and very hot public debate ! )

Karen



"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Mar-9-21 @ 1:03 AM


Alone1    -- Mar-9-2021 @ 5:47 AM
  The BA cant and havent restricted you. They have given guidance that they cannot enforce. You have the choice whether to follow it or not.
Several boats out yesterday including gin palaces as well as hired day boats. boat-sail

Bob Huppendoun

There would be no life without water!!!


Paladine    -- Mar-10-2021 @ 2:14 PM
 
Just seen this in the Press https://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/broads-boat-hire-resumes-amid-concern-from-residents-7816810?fbclid=IwAR0sgFNnGxqfQmls99h4XKQW0ieNuMWL8epP2-VyDEXc3U99olQS_7Y1EA0

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Moderately_Slow    -- Mar-10-2021 @ 2:47 PM
  The BA have only 1 aim in life and that is to keep their paymmasters (DEFRA) sweet. DEFRA have little or no experience of boating and similar sports or pastimes. Hence the fudged and utter twaddle that the BA spout when explaining Gov't law/advice/guidance or whatever.
After the complete mess they made of it in Lockdown 1.0 and the following relaxations one might have expected them to have learnt from their mistakes in Lockdown 2.0 (or is it 3.0?) and the current Gov't Road Map.
The RYA produced guidance of some clarity after Lockdown 1.0 as their point of reference for gaining clarifications was the DCMS and not DEFRA. Although a bit less clear for Lockdown 2.0 it is still better than the BA's effort (subsequently amended).
Why the EA have decided to stick their oar in is beyond me! The waters are muddy enough as it is.

For boaters it is somewhat simpler for us this time as we know we are getting classed as self-catering when it comes to overnight stays. The rest of the changes are merely to do with semantics on the phrases that contain "essential/minimise/local/should" etc.

My interpretation of the Gov'ts Road Map without requiring any explanation/guidance from the BA, DEFRA, DCMS or even The EA is simply put as follows:-

From March 29th "Stay at Home" withdrawn and for the purposes of boat owners maintenance and/or a trip on the water (subject to party size and relationship restrictions) is possible no matter how far from the boat you live.

From April 12th it's as above but you can now stay overnight subject, once again to party size and relationship restrictions.

In neither case is distance from home to a boat a consideration since the travel distance is fixed and unavoidable to do any activity permissible at any given date. An "essential" reason is not required to travel therefore any permitted activity may be carried out regardless of distance travelled.

Okay, one should still avoid long distances but should your boat be 200 miles from home you can hardly avoid travelling this distance to carry out a permitted activity. This becomes all the more relevant from April 12th.


annville    -- Mar-10-2021 @ 3:49 PM
  If you want reliable information go to the engine driver not the passengers. John


Paladine    -- Mar-11-2021 @ 4:17 PM
 
Reliable information appears to be in very short supply right now. Following on from the Herbert Woods case , earlier today, on NBN, the Broads No-Authority stated:

”It's correct that some of what we have been told to relay by DEFRA, particularly around the hire of open-topped boats from 8 March, is somewhat at odds with the legislation about those businesses being required to be closed at the moment. We and others have raised our concerns with them about this and as far as I am aware they are seeking to iron it out with the Cabinet Office at the moment.”

"...somewhat at odds with the legislation about those businesses being required to be closed at the moment."

That is something of an understatement. The advice on the BNA web site about the hiring of day boats is totally at odds with the legislation. As it has now been acknowledged that the information provided is wrong, why hasn’t it been taken off the web site, until such time as it is corrected?

“...told to relay by DEFRA...” I recall DEFRA telling them, in no uncertain terms, that they couldn’t use the National Park name, and look how that turned out. Sorry, but trying to shift the blame doesn’t work.

I haven’t looked too far ahead, as the timetable for reducing restrictions may change, but I found this nugget in the BNA advice:

”Step 1.2 -  29 March
Whilst some boating activities are permitted at this stage, movement is limited. The instruction is to minimise travel where possible and avoid travelling long distances.

Private boats
Private boating permitted for recreation for a single household or bubble (if vessel is enclosed), or for 6 people / 2 households per boat (if vessel is open air, provided it is outdoors and social distancing can be maintained between people from different households).
There remains a requirement to minimise travel and stay local.

Self drive day hire
Private boating permitted for recreation for a single household or bubble (if vessel is enclosed), or for 6 people / 2 households per boat (if vessel is open air, provided it is outdoors and social distancing can be maintained between people from different households).
There remains a requirement to minimise travel and stay local.”


Does anyone proof-read this stuff before it’s published?


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Mar-11-21 @ 5:19 PM


Dzign    -- Mar-12-2021 @ 9:10 AM
  Does anyone proof-read this stuff before it’s published?
STUFF what a great description....

L


annville    -- Mar-12-2021 @ 9:54 AM
  How can two bubbles social distance on any boat let alone a day boat whats difficult to work that out. John


Paladine    -- Mar-12-2021 @ 10:20 AM
 
Yes, social distancing is rather difficult on a boat, but my point was more this glaring error:

Private boats
Private boating permitted...


Self drive day hire
Private boating permitted...


Copy/pasting at its worst.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Jeremy-Aslan    -- Mar-12-2021 @ 6:05 PM
  I wonder if the wording you seem concerned about might actually be correct?

It could be read as a household of individual on a boat counts as 'Private Boating' whether they own the boat or not, as opposed to a commecrial trip.

We may use the distinction between 'Private' and 'Hire', but is that narrow definition necessarily what the term 'Private' is being used for in this context?

So, going on a Trip Boat would not be 'Private Boating', because the actual operation of the vessel is being done by a commercial company, but private individuals navigating a vessel themselves would count as 'Private' as opposed to 'Commercial'.

Just perhaps?


________________________________________________________
'We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty' (HHGG)


Paladine    -- Mar-12-2021 @ 6:32 PM
 
That's a very kind assessment, but I don't think it would go down very well if the hire companies tried to toll the day boats at the private rate using that argument  Smile

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


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