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Mon, 11 Apr 2016 7:20 am BST- Light Rain
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Posted By Discussion Topic: BA and Toll Charges

Similar Threads That Might Help :
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Brenda52
Mar-24-2020 @ 12:57 PM                           Permalink
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Hello All,
It is so sad to learn that very few people will be able to enjoy the river over the next few months.
We decided not to book this year so besides sadness of not being there we have not lost out financially.

I feel sorry for all of you that own your own boat  as I understand you are having to pay tolls to just have your boat sitting in a mooring and going nowhere.

Why are the BA not offering a discount based on the number of months in the year that you will be able to use your boat.

What will they be spending all your money on as most of their staff are probably being sent home and BA claiming the 80% wages from the government and also no business charge on their sites for 12 months.

I don't believe the staff are working from home as I sent the BA two simple questions almost a week ago and no reply as yet.

Good job they're not a 'REAL' company that has to make money based on performance, they would have gone bust many years ago.

Brenda


annville
Mar-24-2020 @ 2:01 PM                           Permalink
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I could comment BUT i refuse to do so. John

Paladine
Mar-24-2020 @ 4:24 PM                           Permalink
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Galling as it is to have to resist the temptation to take my boat out in this fine weather, the government advice is clear:

"You should only leave the house for one of four reasons.

Shopping for basic necessities,for example food and medicine,which must be as infrequent as possible.

One form of exercise a day,for example a run,walk,or cycle alone or with members of your household.

Any medical need?, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person.

Travelling to and from work?, but only where this absolutely cannot be done from home."
[source: Government web site]

This is not something that it is within the power of the BA to influence. We have been assured that maintenance work on the navigation will continue, while it is safe to do so.

It has, I believe, been established that the movement of propellor-powered vessels around the Broads reduces the need for dredging, as the propellor disturbance churns up the silt, into a suspension that gradually works its way down-stream, with the river flow and tide. With the hire firms closing down for the time being, and private boats being confined to their moorings, there will be next-to-no boat movements in the coming weeks.

It might be reasonable to assume that more dredging than usual will be required. Dredging is an expensive operation. Giving a tolls rebate will reduce the cash available for this work.

That's just one argument. Another is how on earth could such a rebate be fairly awarded? Some people use their boat frequently, some boats hardly ever move.

I don't see a toll rebate being either practical or desirable. Perhaps putting projects such as the £30k moorings at Carlton Marshes on hold for a while would be a better idea.

On the other hand, I might simply not comment   LOL

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Mar-24-20 @ 4:25 PM

JP
Mar-24-2020 @ 6:21 PM                           Permalink
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Dear Brenda,

Yes the impact of the emergency measures on the hire boat industry and all of those who would have come to enjoy the area is extremely distressing and worrying for the future. We are working closely with the industry and are hoping that once we are through this the businesses will be able to pick up existing and new customers.

My operational staff members are still out and about maintaining the navigation for the benefit of boat owners and hirers and I have over 50 members of staff on-line working from home.

Please send me your two questions (john.packman@broads-authority.gov.uk) and I will get a reply to you as soon as I can ? though I am sure you will appreciate reacting to this rapidly changing environment has been very challenging.

With regards

John

John Packman
CEO, Broads Authority


Steve51
Mar-24-2020 @ 8:31 PM                           Permalink
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"Another is how on earth could such a rebate be fairly awarded? Some people use their boat frequently, some boats hardly ever move"

Pally is of course right. I have had the good fortune to have 28 days afloat from January 1st till last weekend. Probably a good deal more than most other folk.

As JP also points out; work on the navigation still goes ahead (at great cost) even if the rest of us have an enforced period ashore.

Steve. CM1 and NR12

Marshman
Mar-24-2020 @ 8:41 PM                           Permalink
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This question comes up with a degree of regularity and when you think about it, it would very difficult to police.

Every other winter I take my boat out of the water - would I get a refund?

Someone loses a loved one and just does not want to use the boat? Due a refund?

Many of the sailing yachts are only used for only 5 months a year - do you only pay for 5 mths?

Do you trust people to be honest or employ at some cost a full time enforcement officer?

Sadly the list goes on but by and large generally, how much you use your boat is down to the individual - I suspect to try and organise refunds would just overwhelm the Tolls Office!!!!

TerryTibbs
Mar-25-2020 @ 9:50 AM                           Permalink
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mmmm the argument about the number of times someone takes their boat out on the water is spurious in this case. In effect the waterways are not available for use to anyone other than live a boards at this time,  so an across the board reduction would be fair to everyone and IMHO is the proper thing to do. This situation will not be resolved this year, other than those that “break the rules” , which come warmer weather I might be tempted to do and live on board for 3-4  months, the majority of people will get no use what so ever from their boats. The BAs costs will be drastically reduced while their income will remain the same. will the BA use the money for essential work? I think we all know it will be used to fund yet more vanity projects maybe even the funds to start building the Acle Visitor centre.
Pally is right in his assessment of the effect on the silting up of watercourses by the lack of agitation from Mobos but this will prove once and for all that the policy of charging mobos higher tolls than sail boats on an environmental basis is flawed and in fact the opposite should apply.

Dave

if it is to be it is up to me.

Paladine
Mar-25-2020 @ 10:59 AM                           Permalink
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The latest advice from the Broads Authority regarding COVID-19 can be found here https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/coronavirus-covid-19https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/coronavirus-covid-19

This comment from the advice caught my attention (the emboldenment is theirs):

“The Broads Authority is particularly conscious of the dire position that hire boat operators face. The Authority is therefore highlighting the provision in the Broads Authority Act that hire boats that are not being used and are effectively in storage in their own yards, do not incur a toll.

That is NOT an accurate interpretation of the Broads Acts, so perhaps we should be looking at what the Broads Acts actually do say. The legal loophole that, it seems, the BA wants to use to provide relief to the hire boat operators depends on the adjacent waters exemptions.

Section 13(1) of the 1988 Act says:

“The Authority may determine and recover tolls in respect of vessels moored, used or navigated on adjacent waters as well as in the navigation area.”

What are adjacent waters? Section 2(2) of the 2009 Act provides the definition:

“For the purposes of this Act “adjacent waters” means any broad, dyke, marina or other substantially enclosed waters connected to the navigation area and from which a vessel may be navigated (whether or not through a lock, moveable barrier or any other work) into the navigation area but does not include—
(a)the river Waveney upstream of Geldeston lock; or
(b)the river Tas upstream of Trowse Bridge; or
(c)any waters under the jurisdiction of Associated British Ports or the Great Yarmouth Port Authority; or
(d)any waters which are used, for mooring or navigation, only by the owner of the land upon which those waters are situated; or
(e)any waters which are used, for mooring or navigation, only by an occupant of an adjoining residential dwelling.”


So, if the yards also have boats there that do not belong to the yard owner, for example they rent out moorings to private owners, the yard becomes 'adjacent waters' under the 2009 Broads Act and a toll is payable on ALL the boats kept in the water there. Putting any sort of barrier across the entrance to prevent ingress and egress makes not one jot of difference. It would still be 'adjacent waters'.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

JP
Mar-25-2020 @ 11:29 AM                           Permalink
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Good Morning Pally,

I hope you are well.

Yes you are correct in the fact that the waters are adjacent waters but Section 16 Exemption of certain vessels sub section (6) states:

Nothing contained in or in force or done under the specified provisions shall apply to any vessel which—

(a) is not for the time being in use for the purposes of navigation, or for residential or commercial purposes;

(b) is moored on waters occupied or customarily used by a person carrying on a business; and

(c) is so moored for the purposes of being serviced, repaired or stored by that person or of being sold or offered or exposed for sale by that person (whether acting as principal or agent).

I hope that helps.

Regards
John


ncsl
Mar-25-2020 @ 11:45 AM                           Permalink
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As some of you may already know I have tasked the question to the BA about the tolls and the use of private boats during our "lock down " on travel.

I have not paid my tolls as yet - not all fools day so not due.
I will not be paying them until either I will be allowed to get to use my boat or some sort of reduction on the tools is offered for non use due to government rules.
I have suggested the ba look into a reduction based on a daily rate discount on the toll cost per day and discounted on this until such time as the travel arrangements are lifted.
If the DVLA can handle  SORN on many millions of car taxes why cant the BA offer a discount based on the "non use " of boats due ONLY for the government clamp down.   My toll wouldnt break the BA bank for them - after all they are loosing load of money by giving the hire companys a toll free waver whilst this is going on.   How much a private boat reduction based on the daily rate would cost them would be very small but would hold the BA in higher regard for doing so.   We all have to pull our weight in this very troubled times, people are loosing money hand over fist due to clousers - including the lack of boat use / maintenance etc.


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