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The Norfolk Broads Forum / Ask JP 5 / toll rise
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Posted By Discussion Topic: toll rise

Similar Threads That Might Help :
Toll Rise is Official - Nearly| Toll rises ‘could drive boaters off Broads’| Anger at Broads tolls rise| Anger at rise in Broads boat tolls| Broads Tolls to rise | Broads Tolls to rise |

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Paladine
Nov-26-2018 @ 7:49 PM                           Permalink
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Sorry, Dodger65, I was referring to JP’s comparison to price rises elsewhere. A common argument but one which, in my opinion, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

I did address the answer to your question directly to you.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)

Dodger65
Nov-26-2018 @ 7:59 PM                           Permalink
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Paladins
OK was a little confused but all clear now
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Keep That Boating Smile
Dodger65

annville
Nov-26-2018 @ 8:41 PM                           Permalink
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Hi Dodger Yes canals do need dredging they also have banks that collapse where the canal crosses a made up bank, they also have many bridges that require repairs along with leaks, the one advantage they have over the broads is the banks and moorings are usually stone lined unlike the broads which are wood in most cases, they also don't cut the trees back/remove to give the sailors more wind for there sails. the current flow is also nonexistent. there is also the problem that they are used for dumping bikes, trolleys, tyres along with vandalism to locks, thankfully not a problem on the broads.John

Richard
Nov-26-2018 @ 9:24 PM                           Permalink
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John,

I appreciate your answer, but lets be realistic.

A couple of years ago the owners of larger broads vessels had their tolls increased, while the HBO's, the major users of the system had their tolls decreased. I wasn't too happy then.

Last year the toll increase was for tree trimming or some such. Tell me how well that went, not such a success was it - about a £90,000 loss wasn't it?

Then again I might be wrong, there was the great dredging project, along with spending money on the lock and staff support for Oulton Broad. I was told, and I can't remember where I heard this. But that investment would help the Oulton Broad area.

The Broad never got dredged properly, and the main convenience store has now closed.

Bloody good investment there.

As a member pointed out 2.6% is almost in-line with inflation, depending of which study you look at.

BUT the real question is, are we, the toll payers getting value for our money?

If I owned a boatyard I would say YES, a great summer, loads of tourists, lower toll costs, ka ching! for 18 weeks of the year.

As a privateer, I'm thinking how much bang am I getting for my buck?

Next year we might have a cr*p summer, the HBO's don't make so much money, they claim poverty, and who's going to bail them out with yet lower toll costs? We shall see.
  

Karen&Mike
Nov-27-2018 @ 12:01 PM                           Permalink
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Richard ,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. And now if we look at the thread about electric posts, we can see a hint of what is likely to come, and yes, it's another case of tolls supporting the needs of the yards more than the privateers. Excluding "continuous cruisers" (a recognised status on the canals but not on the Broads) many of whom use the posts on a near permanent basis. So perhaps, as I have argued before, those who liveaboard but do not have a residential/home mooring, should be classified separately and pay a different (increased)  toll to recreational privateers. This would reflect their greater needs and use of the system. And stop the rest of us boatowners feeling like we are subsiding everyone else !!!!

Oops, tin hat on now I imagine....

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

Marshman
Nov-27-2018 @ 2:34 PM                           Permalink
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Not sure I can see any real connection between dredging Oulton and the store closing?

What would dredging Oulton "properly " mean in actual terms? Although I do visit the Broad, I cannot ever recall going aground or are we talking about sufficient dredging to allow the big racers adequate depth to race in at all states of the tide?

I may be wrong, but was there not a lot of "discussion" as to where the spoil was going to be placed? I seem to recall there was a plan to fill some of the dykes on the South side at the bottom of Oulton Dyke which came to nothing. Presumably Suffolk Wildlife Trust were also involved as it is very close to Carlton Marshes, one of their flagship operations!

Dreamer
Nov-27-2018 @ 6:03 PM                           Permalink
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#And now if we look at the thread about electric posts, we can see a hint of what is likely to come, and yes, it's another case of tolls supporting the needs of the yards more than the privateers. Excluding "continuous cruisers" (a recognised status on the canals but not on the Broads) many of whom use the posts on a near permanent basis. So perhaps, as I have argued before, those who liveaboard but do not have a residential/home mooring, should be classified separately and pay a different (increased)  toll to recreational privateers. This would reflect their greater needs and use of the system. And stop the rest of us boatowners feeling like we are subsiding everyone else !!!! #

The idea of ‘liveaboards’ being classified differently to private boats does have its merits I think but I can’t see it ever happening. I don’t believe hire boats do use the electric posts more than privateers do, for a start they tend to be travelling more so miss out on grabbing a free post very often. There are certainly more hire boats equipped to use shore power now but I don’t believe they outnumber private boats. Certainly on the southern rivers, it’s the private boats that hog the posts on a regular basis.

JP
Nov-27-2018 @ 6:09 PM                           Permalink
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Afternoon Richard,

I presume you are referring to the Tolls Review of 2016 and the changes to the navigation charges which were implemented in 2017/18 when the Authority moved to a simple charging structure based on the area of each vessel. This meant that 44% of all boats saw a reduction in their toll but that larger boats experienced an increase.

If you look at Table 7 taken in the report that went to the Broads Authority on 18th November 2016 you will find that of the weekly hired craft 189 paid less and 600 paid more following the changes to the structures of the charges.

Last year’s increase included provision for the purchase of equipment to help us with the management of bankside tree and scrub clearance. It consisted of Nato floats, an excavator and tree shears. The total cost was £61,327.54.

We took delivery of them last month and we have been delighted with the performance. It has increased our effectiveness – we can clear up to three times as much bank in the same time when compared with the conventional approach – and it is a much safer operation for the staff – particularly when removing tree trunks that are partially submerged at the edge of the river.

Turning to dredging in Oulton Broad …

The following locations in the Broads have high siltation rates: Haddiscoe Cut, Hickling Broad, the Lower Bure and Oulton Broad. Because of this the Authority’s dredging operation returns to these locations more frequently depending upon the availability of sediment re-use locations and deposition sites.

Between 2015 & 2018 we  have removed over 30,000m3 of accumulated sediments from Oulton Broad at an cost of around £100,000.

In 2019/20 the Authority is planning to return to Oulton Broad to carry out another sizable sediment removal programme. This work will be carried out in conjunction with the Suffolk Wildlife Trust and the dredged material will be used to create the wetland at Carlton Marshes.

The Broads Authority tries to contain its costs and deliver good value for money while also responding to the demands for additional services from its boating customers.

My own view is that a flourishing hire boat industry is not only an important part of the visitor economy but also makes a substantial contribution (c 35% of navigation income) to the costs of maintaining the navigation and thereby helps keep the costs for the private boat owner down.

With regards

John


annville
Nov-27-2018 @ 7:38 PM                           Permalink
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I don't see the need to charge live boards more,what is it they get that the rest of us don't,yes they migrate from Stalham to sutton to lime kiln dyke the Stalham mooring does get blocked, but thanks to the generosity of Richardsons there are lots of moorings at there yard, almost as close to Stalham, Sutton has lots of moorings, lime Kiln is a bit iffy but they tuck themselves up in the corner where most boats dont moor. at other spots they wild moor, the one that stands out is Whitlinham where they do hug the electric post, Lodden Bason can on odd times be another place.because they are on their boat in the water 52 weeks of the year is no different to someone who keeps his boat in the water but only uses it for one week we all have to pay for pump outs, free water is not paid out of tolls, neather is rubbish collection, certainly some of them don't enhance the beauty of the broads but some privet boats also come in this category albeit they are mostly moored of river.and i have never seen loutish behaviour and if in winter they stay on a electric point they not usually depriving anybody as theirs not many boats about,and if they pay for the electric when its cold and freezing i don't begrudge them some comfort it's not like it costs me anything, i'm quite envious on occasion sitting there watching the world go by with my feet up in front of a log fire toasting and eating bread door steps  dripping in butter. most liver boards are in marinas and don't stand out,the only people that are aware are marina owners that see it as 24/7 security for free, they may not have planning permission but who cares. let all live and let live it's a very unfair world we live in.Communism doesn't work. John

Richard
Nov-27-2018 @ 7:55 PM                           Permalink
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memo to self - never have a discussion with JP on numbers Smile

RE Oulton Broad, "taking over the lock operation would bring more traffic to Oulton Broad", John I'm sure someone can find that quote. This has not happened, and the local store has closed. Yes there is a linkage there.

Yes a lot of muck was removed, yet boats still ground out, and I'm talking Broads cruisers. I do know that some of this is due to a riverside owner, but the dredger never got within 400m of the lock.

And my last boring point. I know I'm not going to win, but at least I can rattle a cage.

Yes only 5% of Board Authority members are Hire Boat Operators. But what's the percentage of the Nav Com, and how many vessels do they represent? I'm someone can work out those numbers Wink  And wasn't it the Nav Com approved the toll rise?

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