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Posted By Discussion Topic: Converting sea yacht for use on Broads

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Sheque1
Jan-05-2018 @ 10:47 AM                           Permalink
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I've just looked at those for sail,
Blue Ripple is a good competitive boat I've been passed by her many times.

Y71 for £1000 is a bargain, Id be tempted to buy that, the biggest difference between any Yeoman is the Nut on the Helm..

The Kinsman I don't personally know, but Rutland do have a competitive fleet. you are allowed to race Kinsman against Yeoman in all races, the Kinsman has the better handicap.
I know there are other Yeoman for sail on club notice boards around the Country including Horning.

Cocklegat
Jan-05-2018 @ 12:52 PM                           Permalink
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I was interested to follow this thread, and can't help but add to it.
I'm a huge fan of Broads designed half-deckers and sailed a white boat for many years.
The first thing you have got to decide is what exactly will you use the boat for. Reading your thread you clearly want to sail specifically on Broads waters. Most small estuary sailing boats have to compromise on design and clearly while a few are suburb on the Broads (Pegasus, Hunter etc) many can't match a proper Broads boat in sailing performance.  When I say performance I am not talking about racing.  Earnest Woods took several attempts to get what he wanted out of the YBOD and he referred to it as his 'picnic boat' even though it was a commission to design a racing boat.  An expert on small half deckers having built so many starting at the age of around 16 when he built Terrier in 1896.
The result is that while not as fast as say a Rebel, the YBOD is a great all rounder with a much larger open cockpit , fin keel of shallow depth and fully balance rudder. Its a light weight boat with a large but very reefable main, meaning that sailing is possible in most conditions.  The mast is light enough for one person to lower and the boat can be sailed by one person. I was always told it would be a good idea to fit a self tacking jib, but I never bothered! In a breeze you can sail the boat without the Jib, however it comes in very handy when tacking in narrow rivers.
Having sailed most types of half deckers I much prefer the YBOD, even over the similar WOD.  A Rebel is great fun but it is primarily a racing beast.
Now to the down sides!
Half Deckers don't come with much comfort! As a younger man I used to camp out on my boat under the very useful cover.
However the sheer luxury of having a boat such as a Pegasus with cabin is a great attraction.  A wooden half-decker needs to be carefully looked after and stored inside during the winter.  I'm also not a great fan of the idea of putting wooden boats of this ilk on road trailers. They were not designed for it!  So a small estuary yacht or Yeomen in glass fibre with a road trailer is a tempting prospect.
However as a simple day boat you just can't beat the YBOD (Wood or Glass) As a day boat you can get where you want fast anywhere with the joy of knowing and learning that you don't need an engine, working winds and tides and carrying a light quant (essential) and with the fabulous bonus of being very close to nature.......... a low freeboard and being under sail gives you all that and more.



This message was edited by Cocklegat on Jan-5-18 @ 12:55 PM

Broadreach
Jan-06-2018 @ 11:45 AM                           Permalink
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Sheque1
There are some some fine-looking Yeomans around and the one for sale in Scotland at £1,000 does indeed appear to be a bargain.

Cocklegat
I had many happy years sailing my half-decker on the Broads. When I investigated her history I found out that she was a prototype for a proposed Oulton Broad One Design. She won a lot of races (and large cash bets) against YBODs and WODs before being blackballed by Broads racing committees for being too fast! No other half-deckers were built to the design but she continued to race in club handicap races.
She was very handy to sail and we very rarely used a small outboard we bolted to a bracket that could be hung from the main horse. We also used oars instead of a quant pole and rowed Venice gondola-style by standing and pushing the oars.
I occasionally camped on board for longer trips but after a while preferred to stop at hotels or pubs with accommodation.
At least a GRP production yacht would have reasonably comfortable accommodation.
Another idea has cropped up today after I found the Twitter account of a coastal sailor who also cruises on the Broads. His yacht is a fabulous 25ft Norfolk Smuggler, a GRP boat with gaff cutter rig, wooden spars and mast in a tabernacle. The Smugglers are expensive boats, but they do have the traditional charm of old wooden boats.
The search continues.

Marshman
Jan-06-2018 @ 12:35 PM                           Permalink
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Broadreach - even if the Smuggler was within reach price wise, IMHO just not suitable for the Broads!!

You do see one or two around but they are estuary boats designed for the conditions in open water - more heavily built and able to reef down in a chunky blow.

As a rule of thumb, and not really accurate, I gauge westerlies at about a Beaufort Scale less in the Broads than open waters - easterlies probably broadly similar! You need lighter boats with enough hull speed to get you through the tree shadows so faster boats are better and you need a decent sail area Interestingly the Rebel has a sail area similar to the Smuggler but I guess the latter, a true displacement boat weighs in about 3 times the weight or perhaps more!

The Rebel will ,in a decent blow and reefed down, show excellent speed but in light airs will ghost along without effort.

Cocklegat had the right idea - its all about horses for courses but if you want to sail, he about sums it up perfectly.

Broadreach
Jan-06-2018 @ 4:16 PM                           Permalink
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Marshman
Yes, I do want to sail whenever or wherever possible. But the perfect boat, to tick all the right boxes, is very much a tall order - literally!
It will need an ultra-high mast (Thames A-rater style) to keep sails driving in tree shadow. It needs a long 'skimming dish' GRP or carbon hull with shallow fin (A- Rater or Maidie-style)for minimum drag and maximum boat speed. It needs a counter-balanced wood mast or an alloy or carbon mast in an A-frame. For comfort it needs full headroom, nice comfy berths, a cooker, hot water, shower and heads, microwave (as in the latest luxury hire boats). And it must sail well at sea for occasional trips down south to Essex, Kent and beyond.
Definitely a tall order in every sense.
Compromise is the key word.
I am leaning towards a Pegasus but are they better sailers than any Hunter, Jaguar, Evolution, Trapper??
Are there any others that could be modified for Broads/coastal use? I have heard there are some good Polish-made yachts on the Broads. I would prefer shallow fin or lifting keel. I have ruled out bilge keel.

cheers

Broadreach




This message was edited by Broadreach on Jan-6-18 @ 4:17 PM

Cocklegat
Jan-06-2018 @ 9:08 PM                           Permalink
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The speed of a displacement hull is dependent on the waterline length.
for a YBOD this is 18ft WOD around 20ft Rebel again around 20ft. (Somebody once told me that different rebels are slightly different lengths !!)
Anyway I seem to recall a fig of around 1.3x SqRoot of the waterline length.

But of course it is not all about speed!

turnoar
Jan-06-2018 @ 9:54 PM                           Permalink
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Cocker is spot on, it’s also about pointing ability and ease of tacking. Missing from broadreach’s shopping list is the mg which I think were polish built, imported and sold locally, possibly Sutton staithe boatyard or catfield industrial estate. The fin keel version which sailed at hickling for a season sailed terribly and spent half a winter aground before disappearing altogether. A hunter 19 with a Norfolk punt rig had no trouble sailing through candle dyke.

The trailer sailers like the Parker 21 and 235 have done much better at the three rivers race than the other production boats but in all the bloodbaths at hickling broad regatta I’ve not seen any production boat keep up with even the sluggiest of broads half deckers.

Would be interesting to see a hawk 20 put through its paces on inland waters but at nearly 10k secondhand a yeoman or kinsman makes more financial sense.

I still think evolution before a Peggy having sailed both the Thurne and Bure.

GW2000
Jan-06-2018 @ 10:31 PM                           Permalink
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Broadreach

I think with one of your key requirements being the ability to go out to sea and down the coast occasionally, it does kind of limit the choices.

In reality as you mention you are probably looking at a Pegasus, Hunter, Jaguar, Colvic Salty dog or something of that nature.

Out of all of these your likely to find the Pegasus has the mast lowering system pre-fitted - else you will have to modify the others. There are others of course - a Barnes 28 yacht for sale in Lancashire (currently on Boatshed) which was built for the broads. Others to consider are some of the smaller Beneteau's - like the First 20 or 25 or the Jeanneau equivalents - BUT watch out for the rudder configurations - some of these have twin rudders which are not good for the broads and tacking as you are probably aware. But there are older ones with single rudders + they have lifting keels which is good for the East Coast, particularly if you want to go up some of the rivers like the River Deben at Woodbridge (I can really recommend that as a trip).

You then have the Sportina's and Delphias from Poland and there are a few of those around on the broads now. Also don't forget the Parker Yacht range. The smaller ones go on a trailer as well which is great for winter maintenance and again they have lifting keels.

Again if you want the ability to go down the coast, I think a cabin of some sort is a must.



Cocklegat
Jan-07-2018 @ 12:00 AM                           Permalink
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Well of course having a boat designed for the sea is an entirly  different matter. You have to compromise Broads sailing ability with any small sea boat by a reduction in thier sail area which is suitable for the sea, Boats such as broads half deckers, with the exception of Brown Boats which were designed to sail off lowestoft, are pretty flat bottomed,(Rebel not quite so) and  constructed very lightly and carry far more sail area than any sea boat....completely unsuitable.You can't have both!  
It's a difficult choice, the decision is how much to you think you would sail on the Broads and how often would you use the boat at sea. In reality if you are keeping the boat on the Broads you won't use it much at sea.  If you think that might be a possibility then go for the best small coastal sailing cruisers already mentioned.
The problem with sailing small sailing cruisers off our coast is that the relatively low speed of these boats dictates what you can do. With a favourable wind and leaving just before low water you can just make the Orwell in one tide from Lowestoft. Going for a day sail returning to Lowestoft (Or Yarmouth) is always dictated by the tide and getting it wrong means a long slog back, even using the engine.  A pleasant thing on a sunny summer's day but you need a boat that you have confidence in when conditions change, which they can do pretty quickly!

Broadreach
Jan-07-2018 @ 12:01 PM                           Permalink
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Thanks very much for your guidance and observations, folks. It really has been very useful to find out more about production yachts which are sailed on the Broads.
I am still wavering towards a Pegasus 700 or 800 but could still be swayed by a good wood or GRP YBOB.
I love sailing traditional Broads yachts and keep being lured back to them, despite drifting away to crew on Thames barges, to race high performance dinghies and yachts and also spend about 20 years cruising on large yachts in the North Sea, Channel, Baltic and Ionian Sea.
Now that I am retired I would like to be based on one of the southern Broads rivers but nip out through Lowestoft to cruise south for weeks at a time. I wouldn't do day trips from Lowestoft but if there is a chance of a few weeks away in good weather I would be off like a shot and work my way south to my old stamping grounds Southwold, Orford, Woodbridge, the Orwell, Stour, Backwaters, Colne, Tollesbury, Blackwater, Crouch, Roach and Thames Estuary.
One of my sailing heroes is Charles Stock who sailed his engine-less 16ft cutter Shoal Waters to most of these places from his mooring at Heybridge by working the tides and watching the weather. He did countless trips over weekends and was rarely late for work on a Monday.
My coastal trips will be short hops rather than trying to bash down from Lowestoft to the Medway in a day (although I have seen a very good video of such a voyage made in a Hunter Horizon 23!).
The rest of my time will be spent on the Broads, taking relatives and friends for day trips or nipping up to Norwich to see friends. We might even occasional head back to our former northern rivers haunts.
Plan A is now to find a good Pegasus or an Evolution.
Plan B, if Plan A fails, bite the bullet forget about coastal sailing and get a fast half-decker.
The search continues

Cheers

Broadreach





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