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Mon, 11 Apr 2016 7:20 am BST- Light Rain
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The Norfolk Broads Forum / Projects / Converting sea yacht for use on Broads
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Posted By Discussion Topic: Converting sea yacht for use on Broads

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annville
Dec-28-2017 @ 4:03 PM                           Permalink
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Hi Broadreach You could fit a diverter valve to toilet outlet pipe to switch between sea and holding tank for waste disposal/control,or fit two valves for self discharge of waste tank contents.It would be difficult to find space for a counter weight on bottom of mast, hydraulic ram would be more compact way of raising and control dropping with offset guy/haliads wires/ropes. John

Broadreach
Dec-28-2017 @ 5:21 PM                           Permalink
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Hi John
Thanks for your ideas. I reckon a holding tank that can be pumped out at sea or ashore would be the best of both worlds. But if a basic sea loo can be used on the Broads, albeit occasionally and sensibly, I would prefer to avoid fitting a holding tank as space is always limited on a 7-metre yacht.
The mast of any yacht I decide to buy will be mounted on the cabin top so there is no way it can be counter-balanced and pivoted in a tabernacle. All I will need is a hinge system for the foot of the mast, an A-frame and a block and tackle for hauling up and down. I just need a firm to supply and fit the gear!
Are A-frames made to measure?
Cheers
Broadreach

turnoar
Dec-28-2017 @ 5:28 PM                           Permalink
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Speak to a rigger and get two new shrouds with ss eyes in line with the hinge point, two strops that reach from these to the forestay fitting, a pole between here and the mast and a block and pulleys to gently lower the mast. Set up correctly the mast won’t deviate from the centre line as the strops will stay taught. I’ve used this on a Bermudan rigged broads yacht and it was excellent at circa 35 foot of heavy Ali mast so will be more than adequate for the twenty or so you have to manhandle. Make the pulley line long enough so the pole can go 180 degrees flat back onto the mast for shooting the bridges. This can all be done from the foredeck so you’re safe which is paramount.

Safe voyages wherever ye sail!

Coriolis
Dec-28-2017 @ 8:13 PM                           Permalink
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Broadreach - your proposal is easy to accomplish Smile

Your sea toilet can be left fully functional as there are no rules to prevent its use on the Broads (applies to yachts only - mobos need holding tanks)  although I'd suggest it's probably somewhat antisocial to operate it unless  somewhere where a decent current is flowing.  Most Broads yachts have this arrangement and the biggest fuss is made by those who find it distasteful….and conveniently believe that the countless tons of fish, bird and other wildlife excrement is somehow less objectionable – there’s an outcry every time this subject is raised, but it’s not that long ago when all Broads boats discharged overboard as a matter of course.  

On the subject of A frames – while they can be made up to suit (with attendant cost), I have successfully used a single pitch-pole in similar circumstances on a friend’s 22 footer for several years. To expand on Turnoar's excellent suggestion -  In describing it I make 2 assumptions: 1. That the mast is pivoted on a bolt or similar which protrudes a little each side of the tabernacle on the cabin roof (or could be replaced with something longer which would stick out a little), and 2. That the forestay is wire, with a loop at the bottom where it attaches to a rope made fast to a cleat at or about deck level.

The suggestion above of rigging up a pair of sway-braces is an excellent one, but not vital if you take care to only raise and lower in calm water when there’s no big wash rocking you about.

Make your pitch-pole from timber (I used some handy 2x2) long enough to fit between the tabernacle and the forestay.  Make this long enough so there’s no slack (i.e. an inch longer than the distance between the two points; this ensures it doesn’t fall out while you’re not looking!  Make a fork at the mast end such as will locate on the mastbolt - I used a piece of metal strip screwed on each side with fork cut in each, to locate on the mastbolt head & tail.

The only significant load on the pole is in compression - there's little side-load provided you take care to keep the mast centralised sideways-speaking

A long woodscrew with the head cut off makes a spike at the front end of the pole; this is poked through the loop at the bottom of the forestay, simply to keep the pole in place as the mast goes down/up.

When you want to lower, find a sheltered spot to moor, fit the pole between mastbolt and forestay, release the forestay and lower away – without the pole the forestay will fall along the mast and lose mechanical advantage, but the pole will rise as the forestay loop rises, maintaining a triangle which gives you control over everything provided you hang on to the forestay rope.

(Did I mention some crutches or similar should be made up to rest the lowered mast in…. 1 x 1.5 crossed scissor fashion with a bolt as pivot works fine).

Once lowered, the pitch-pole can be removed (otherwise it will be a small mast and catch on the bridge as you go through!) and laid on deck.  At the other side, reverse the process.

Cost? Less than £20, plus a couple of hours with a saw and a few nails.  Not the prettiest solution but works and can be left ashore if the day’s plan doesn’t involve bridges….no permanent modifications on the boat at all.

Have fun Smile




This message was edited by Coriolis on Dec-28-17 @ 8:17 PM

Stick
Dec-28-2017 @ 9:34 PM                           Permalink
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Re sea toilets and the Broads. I think you may find if you read the rules and regulations that all boats are to have a holding tank. The exceptions are Hunters fleet of wooden sailing boats. Yes, it was never a problem a few years ago but now it is. Don't forget you will also need a boat safety exam if you have a fitted berth, or an onboard cooking device and electric system.
Years ago when I had my first boat safety my toilet was checked as my boat came in from the sea, I'd removed the sea toiled and used a portaloo... But it was part of the boat safety then..... Course I may have been given duff gen about the sea toilets. I would check if I were you. Plus you may want to consider what keel is on the proposed yacht as a large fin keel may not be suitable due to water depths in places only being 4-5 feet. I have bilge keels on mine so mooring on shelving banks is a no no and care is needed when navigating on the rivers due to shelving banks. Watch out on mast steps too as a lot of masts can be lowered on their anchor point at the mast foot.... But I once saw a boat approaching Haddiscoe new bridge and they lowered the mast as they had always done with it pivoting at the stainless steel pin on the mast foot....unfortunately it had become worn over the years and slowly widened the pin holes until eventually the mount sheared at the pin mount and whole lot went over the side... I towed them into st olaves marina. Plus there are some alloy masts out there that have had tabernacles made for them and people have just drilled holes in the mast... Not a good idea again as pivot hole wears and mast breaks off at that point.... There is one at Landamores yard that sheeted off at the pivot point. Hope this helps.... For better advise especially on rules and regs, try Boulter Marine ( Horning) as they do boat safety there and are wise in the ways of the rivers. Happy new year!

Ex-military! Not a civilian!

Coriolis
Dec-28-2017 @ 10:37 PM                           Permalink
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Stick is quite correct about the need for a BSS certificate (unless you're visiting on a temporary toll), but that's true for all boats and wasn't part of the OP's question.

On the toilet issue though, there is a widely-applied exemption for low-freeboard and often-heeling yachts, to which it is deemed impractical to fit holding tanks.  This isn't just applicable to Hunters, but also the vast majority of the River Cruiser fleet of 400+ yachts and the few remaining other hire yachts.

This can be confirmed by a simple telephone call to the Broads Authority, hopefully avoiding a "yes it is/no it isn't" argument...

Valid point about water depth vs keels.....very few Broads yachts draw much more than 3'6-9" and only a handful draw over 4 feet....but again the OP's proposed boats all draw less than this.  Bilge keels reduce the depth requirement but as Stick notes, can restrict bankside mooring, and anyway also hamper turns when tacking....not an infrequent event on the rivers. If I was considering a production boat I'd seriously look at lifting keels - on the Broads there is no question of IF you'll hit the putty, only WHEN.

It's all good fun either way Smile





This message was edited by Coriolis on Dec-28-17 @ 10:43 PM

ChrisHGB
Dec-29-2017 @ 8:08 AM                           Permalink
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Have you considered converting to carbon spars? The dramatic reduction in weight aloft takes much of the mast lowering problems away.

Chris.

I have swallowed the anchor but
have not tried mud weight yet!

Stick
Dec-29-2017 @ 12:43 PM                           Permalink
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One of my New Years resolutions for 2018- apart from sort the bloody engine mounts out- is to go and dig my tabernacle and mast out and get mine sailing again. She sails fine down wind but tacks like a block of flats up wind, but,
as somone once told me, gentlemen Sail down wind and the engine is for up wind. Didn't know that about sailing boats but obvious now I think about it! But as always a quick phone call to BA will resolve the issue, better to get the facts and be compliant then run the risk of getting in the poo.... Possibly literally in this case! Lol

Ex-military! Not a civilian!

Broadreach
Dec-29-2017 @ 2:21 PM                           Permalink
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Hi again folks

Thanks very much for your advice. There are some great ideas there and I will certainly be consulting Mr Google’s searching website and the Broads Authority to investigate further.
In my first post I mentioned that I was looking for a yacht such as a Sonata, Hunter 23, Pegasus or similar, but I should have mentioned that I have already decided that a shallow fin or wing keel was the preferred option. It should have an inboard engine, or at least an outboard tucked under the cockpit benches (rather than taking up seating space) or an outboard on a lifting bracket on the transom.
The yacht should also have reasonable headroom, a separate heads, comfortable berths and space for a decent cooker and maybe a small fridge or coolbox.
It should also have excellent sailing qualities and be able to race occasionally and make fast passages on the Broads or at sea. I prefer to sail wherever possible and would use a motor only in a dead calm.
The only problem is I have not yet been able to find the perfect yacht. Perhaps I never will. Maybe it is not the right time of year to search, but I have been looking since August. It seems that good boats are snapped up quickly while the not so good linger on the pages of brokers’ websites.
I guess my years of owning fast wooden Broads yachts followed by later years of racing and cruising GRP sea yachts have tainted my search for the perfect Broads/coastal cruiser.
Maybe I should buy one of the delightful wooden Broads yachts currently for sale. I loved all the maintenance, replacing planks and other wooden parts, the sanding, painting and varnishing. But I did promise Mrs B that I would buy a GRP so that I could divert my DIY skills to our home.
In the meantime, the search for the perfect yacht continues as I continue to swot up on sea loos, BSS safety tests, A-frames, DIY pitch-poles, sway braces and carbon spars (now, I do like that idea, but would be reluctant to dispose of a perfectly good mast and boom from a hull that fits the bill).
If anyone hears of a suitable yacht for sale please let me know.

Cheers

Broadreach









Marshman
Dec-29-2017 @ 2:30 PM                           Permalink
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Presumably you have checked Topsail?? Pegasus 700 or 800 both available and both would fit your criteria! More room, pay more or less, pay less!
Job done!!

Exile
Dec-29-2017 @ 3:20 PM                           Permalink
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I would listen to MM.
Especially the Pegasus 700 and 800 which come with a variety of keel options. Simply choose one that you see as most suitable for your needs. They are obviously already on your radar.
These are generally not expensive boats to buy. They fit the bill ideally for Broads and coastal sailing.

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