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The Norfolk Broads Forum / Broads Boat Owners Q & A / E10 Petrol
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Posted By Discussion Topic: E10 Petrol

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FreemanBattyBat
Aug-03-2021 @ 12:08 PM                           Permalink
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A similar story of doom was rife when E5 came on the scene. Owning a Freeman with a petrol engine ( early crossflow Escort type) myself and most owners in a similar situation were concerned. It transpired the awful predictions were overstated as most marine version engines of this type run cool and at 2000rpm maximum most of the time the effects seem minimal.
However with the change to E10 owners are being advised to change to Super unleaded ( Esso claim theirs contain 0% ethanol but regulations insist they label it E5) The only hope is that 0% super unleaded will remain available despite Mr P's information it won't be after a certain date.

I also agree the fact that our small island will make no concernable difference whilst others pollute willy nilly.

Freeman F23 Flittermouse moored near
Geldeston

annville
Aug-03-2021 @ 1:56 PM                           Permalink
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Hi Thats as maybe who were the biggest polluters in Victorian times with the industrial revolution? Sin's of the Fathers comes to mind. why should just the rest of the world pay more, we must all do our bit. John

Dilligaf
Aug-03-2021 @ 3:04 PM                           Permalink
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For only ocaisionaly used garden equipment it's worth considering something like aspen instead of regular petrol, maybe even for the last carbfull of the season in an outboard too as it has a 5 year shelf life once opened, I always had trouble with my chainsaw till I switched over and been fine since.
It's expensive but I use a 5 litre tub in 5 years so worth the lack of aggro, I've put a splash in a bike tank as well before laying it up for any extended period, saves all the carb stripping as there's no gumming up to worry about.  

Dave.
Formerly 'LeoMagill'

Karen&Mike
Aug-03-2021 @ 3:12 PM                           Permalink
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I think the issue is that the rest of the world collectively isn't doing its bit though, is it ?

And some of the things being done both here and abroad are lauded as greener when sometimes they are not.

There are many schemes for example, to encourage planting of trees, but nothing to fully and properly protect all the trees (and shrubs and gardens etc) that we already have. I firmly believe that a great step forward would be to say no tree anywhere can simply be felled, ripped out etc. ALL trees should automatically be protected, be it along the side of railways for example  ( yes thats another story isn't it) or in private gardens.

Anyway, back to E10 - which is not all it's cracked up to be, causes damage and the need to produce other replacement components or even full replacement items  ( all this at a cost to the environment ) .

Are you giving up,your Diesel engined boat then Annville , to pay for the sins of your fathers ? Sorry couldn't resist asking,

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Aug-3-21 @ 3:16 PM

FreemanBattyBat
Aug-03-2021 @ 3:40 PM                           Permalink
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Main topic was about E fuel not pollution.
I was just passing a comment on a previous post re pollution.....
Sins of our fathers I'm not denying, but (and it's a big but) I still stand by my statement that our present output changes little in the wider context.

Freeman F23 Flittermouse moored near
Geldeston


This message was edited by FreemanBattyBat on Aug-3-21 @ 3:42 PM

Loughrigg
Aug-03-2021 @ 5:02 PM                           Permalink
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quote:"......
A similar story of doom was rife when E5 came on the scene. . It transpired the awful predictions were overstated
......."


I'm not foretelling a story of doom. Not at all. E10 has been around for a while in the States and Australia. However, it was introduced with quite a bit of fanfare and industry backing.
What's happening in the UK seems to be - "while we sleep" - if i can get away with that phrase.

I also wanted to clear up my previous post just a bit because I think it does skim over a few salient points.

So here we go and i ask forgiveness of anyone who is already bored solid by the subject Smile

Ethanol has been in our fuel for a long time. Up to 5% - that's what E5 means. It's not new and water absorption is not new.

Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) normally (i'm stressing normally) blends seamlessly with petrol and it's pretty difficult to separate them.

Unless you add too much water to the mixture. And that's the rub!!!

E5 fuel will already hold up to 2.500 ppm water - E10, 7000 ppm. [at 70 degrees] - and that's from the refinery. forget what it'll pick up at the filling station tanks.

Let's break it down. Ethanol itself, as i stated previously is highly hygroscopic, both absorbing water and enabling whatever it's blended into to absorb more water. Some have described this phenomenon as "ethanol attracts and absorbs water from whatever is around it".  That's more of a "lay person" way of describing what happens. Ethanol doesn't "reach out and grab" water from the air, but it does make it easier for the water to be absorbed by the mixture.

So having said that, all ethanol blends have a certain tolerance or ability for absorbing water into the mixture.  Think of it like this;

At up to 5% (E5) the fuel mix is such that the ethanol present can and will absorb some water but struggles to have the strength to break the full absorption barrier and drop out of the fuel to the bottom of the tank fully saturated with water. It's pretty happy where it is - and it does just that, remaining mixed with the petrol in a loving embrace.

At 10% (E10) that barrier is much easier to attain and pass. The higher concentration of Ethanol simply gives up wanting to stay mixed with the petrol and is more interested in the water and separating out. At this concentration Ethanol loves water a lot more than it loves petrol - and is happy to run off with the water and separate from the fuel in a quick and acrimonious divorce.

The chemical reason for this is that the hydrogen bond (polar) between water and ethanol is stronger than the non-polar bond between petrol and ethanol.

If you were to pour 100ml of water into a litre (1000ml) of E10 - 130ml of Ethanol and water will immediately separate out - that's a full 30ml of Ethanol or 3% (3 points) of Octane.

The point I'm trying to make (admittedly in a longwinded fashion) is this. Ethanol in fuel (specifically E10) is viable but not easily so. It takes special and advance engines, engineering, detection systems and a whole lot more to successfully implement. Sadly, history shows that an ill-informed consumer base tend to be the guinea pig of choice in these sweeping changes and not always with the best information about the unintended consequences.

I personally am an earlier adopter of technology but not for technology's sake. The has to be reason and purpose behind the technology - otherwise what 's the point? The 'green' benefits are stated as the main reason for the introduction.

"The environmental agency ePURE says that displacing 10% of Europe’s petrol with ethanol through E10 fuel would reduce greenhouse gas emissions from petrol by more than 6%."

Sounds good doesn't - but there are drawbacks

The RAC says that E10 is potentially less efficient than the current E5 blend of fuel, which could mean it increases fuel bills for drivers, particularly those who own smaller cars. You'll use more fuel on the same journey which is a counter intuitive offset at best. Also, because E10 is produced from plants, there are concerns over deforestation, which risks creating its own CO2 impact.

When all said and done how much difference will it make - no one has really done the maths - sadly.

Swings and roundabouts folks - swings and roundabouts Smile

Mike

'Who says you can't get 43 boats on Ranworth Island'
'Ubique Loquimur' - We Speak Everywhere!


This message was edited by Loughrigg on Aug-3-21 @ 11:25 PM

annville
Aug-03-2021 @ 5:13 PM                           Permalink
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Hi Karen YES my next build will be electric with NiFe battery's all though i will still have gas cooking. John

Loughrigg
Aug-03-2021 @ 5:25 PM                           Permalink
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Hi John,

NiFe batteries?  - running what?

Mike

'Who says you can't get 43 boats on Ranworth Island'
'Ubique Loquimur' - We Speak Everywhere!

Karen&Mike
Aug-03-2021 @ 5:27 PM                           Permalink
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Do you build your own boats John ? Or have them commissioned ?

Another point not considered here is that of the waste and disposal of petrol, and diesel boats/engines. Cars do not last as long as boats so it really does seem such a waste to me that sweeping changes such as the E10 thing, and enforced withdrawal of alternatives , renders useful items as useless  Frown  We are a wasteful society  as it is! Sadly many of the so trumpeted greener options have just as much (sometimes worse) impact in their production or wider impacts. It's all a lot of lip service and game playing. And don't get me onto electric cars and how that's being implemented. We are simply destroying our world in different ways. It's lifestyles that need to change. Consumer demands need to change, especially re food and all the items we get that have travelled half the world over first !

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

annville
Aug-03-2021 @ 6:34 PM                           Permalink
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Hi Karen I have the hull and woodwork built to my design windows from Sea Glaze i then do the rest apart from the RCD cert (too complected) John

annville
Aug-03-2021 @ 6:39 PM                           Permalink
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Hi Mike not sure what you meen ? (propulsion motor)John

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