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The Norfolk Broads Forum / Broads Boat Owners Q & A / E10 Petrol
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Posted By Discussion Topic: E10 Petrol

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FreemanBattyBat
Aug-03-2021 @ 3:40 PM                           Permalink
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Main topic was about E fuel not pollution.
I was just passing a comment on a previous post re pollution.....
Sins of our fathers I'm not denying, but (and it's a big but) I still stand by my statement that our present output changes little in the wider context.

Freeman F23 Flittermouse moored near
Geldeston


This message was edited by FreemanBattyBat on Aug-3-21 @ 3:42 PM

Loughrigg
Aug-03-2021 @ 5:02 PM                           Permalink
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quote:"......
A similar story of doom was rife when E5 came on the scene. . It transpired the awful predictions were overstated
......."


I'm not foretelling a story of doom. Not at all. E10 has been around for a while in the States and Australia. However, it was introduced with quite a bit of fanfare and industry backing.
What's happening in the UK seems to be - "while we sleep" - if i can get away with that phrase.

I also wanted to clear up my previous post just a bit because I think it does skim over a few salient points.

So here we go and i ask forgiveness of anyone who is already bored solid by the subject Smile

Ethanol has been in our fuel for a long time. Up to 5% - that's what E5 means. It's not new and water absorption is not new.

Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) normally (i'm stressing normally) blends seamlessly with petrol and it's pretty difficult to separate them.

Unless you add too much water to the mixture. And that's the rub!!!

E5 fuel will already hold up to 2.500 ppm water - E10, 7000 ppm. [at 70 degrees] - and that's from the refinery. forget what it'll pick up at the filling station tanks.

Let's break it down. Ethanol itself, as i stated previously is highly hygroscopic, both absorbing water and enabling whatever it's blended into to absorb more water. Some have described this phenomenon as "ethanol attracts and absorbs water from whatever is around it".  That's more of a "lay person" way of describing what happens. Ethanol doesn't "reach out and grab" water from the air, but it does make it easier for the water to be absorbed by the mixture.

So having said that, all ethanol blends have a certain tolerance or ability for absorbing water into the mixture.  Think of it like this;

At up to 5% (E5) the fuel mix is such that the ethanol present can and will absorb some water but struggles to have the strength to break the full absorption barrier and drop out of the fuel to the bottom of the tank fully saturated with water. It's pretty happy where it is - and it does just that, remaining mixed with the petrol in a loving embrace.

At 10% (E10) that barrier is much easier to attain and pass. The higher concentration of Ethanol simply gives up wanting to stay mixed with the petrol and is more interested in the water and separating out. At this concentration Ethanol loves water a lot more than it loves petrol - and is happy to run off with the water and separate from the fuel in a quick and acrimonious divorce.

The chemical reason for this is that the hydrogen bond (polar) between water and ethanol is stronger than the non-polar bond between petrol and ethanol.

If you were to pour 100ml of water into a litre (1000ml) of E10 - 130ml of Ethanol and water will immediately separate out - that's a full 30ml of Ethanol or 3% (3 points) of Octane.

The point I'm trying to make (admittedly in a longwinded fashion) is this. Ethanol in fuel (specifically E10) is viable but not easily so. It takes special and advance engines, engineering, detection systems and a whole lot more to successfully implement. Sadly, history shows that an ill-informed consumer base tend to be the guinea pig of choice in these sweeping changes and not always with the best information about the unintended consequences.

I personally am an earlier adopter of technology but not for technology's sake. The has to be reason and purpose behind the technology - otherwise what 's the point? The 'green' benefits are stated as the main reason for the introduction.

"The environmental agency ePURE says that displacing 10% of Europe’s petrol with ethanol through E10 fuel would reduce greenhouse gas emissions from petrol by more than 6%."

Sounds good doesn't - but there are drawbacks

The RAC says that E10 is potentially less efficient than the current E5 blend of fuel, which could mean it increases fuel bills for drivers, particularly those who own smaller cars. You'll use more fuel on the same journey which is a counter intuitive offset at best. Also, because E10 is produced from plants, there are concerns over deforestation, which risks creating its own CO2 impact.

When all said and done how much difference will it make - no one has really done the maths - sadly.

Swings and roundabouts folks - swings and roundabouts Smile

Mike

'Who says you can't get 43 boats on Ranworth Island'
'Ubique Loquimur' - We Speak Everywhere!


This message was edited by Loughrigg on Aug-3-21 @ 11:25 PM

annville
Aug-03-2021 @ 5:13 PM                           Permalink
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Hi Karen YES my next build will be electric with NiFe battery's all though i will still have gas cooking. John

Loughrigg
Aug-03-2021 @ 5:25 PM                           Permalink
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Hi John,

NiFe batteries?  - running what?

Mike

'Who says you can't get 43 boats on Ranworth Island'
'Ubique Loquimur' - We Speak Everywhere!

Karen&Mike
Aug-03-2021 @ 5:27 PM                           Permalink
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Do you build your own boats John ? Or have them commissioned ?

Another point not considered here is that of the waste and disposal of petrol, and diesel boats/engines. Cars do not last as long as boats so it really does seem such a waste to me that sweeping changes such as the E10 thing, and enforced withdrawal of alternatives , renders useful items as useless  Frown  We are a wasteful society  as it is! Sadly many of the so trumpeted greener options have just as much (sometimes worse) impact in their production or wider impacts. It's all a lot of lip service and game playing. And don't get me onto electric cars and how that's being implemented. We are simply destroying our world in different ways. It's lifestyles that need to change. Consumer demands need to change, especially re food and all the items we get that have travelled half the world over first !

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

annville
Aug-03-2021 @ 6:34 PM                           Permalink
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Hi Karen I have the hull and woodwork built to my design windows from Sea Glaze i then do the rest apart from the RCD cert (too complected) John

annville
Aug-03-2021 @ 6:39 PM                           Permalink
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Hi Mike not sure what you meen ? (propulsion motor)John

Loughrigg
Aug-03-2021 @ 10:54 PM                           Permalink
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Hi John,

I hope you'll forgive me for saying but NiFe batteries for electric propulsion is not a good idea in my honest opinion. This chemistry is very very outdated. First commercialised in 1901 just 20 years or so after the lead acid battery was introduced.

They are very limited in their performance in comparison to newer chemistries.

Low specific energy of about 20Wh/kg which is very low compared to other lithium options which can exceed 150 Wh/kg. THe upshot being that you'll need a heck of a lot more space and weight capacity. Approximately 7 times the space and weight required by other chemistries.

Low cycle efficiency - NiFe boasts a discharge rate of about 65% meaning you have to put alot more energy in (about 1.5 times) to fill them up against what you can expect back.

High self discharge rates - so these batteries lose approximately 1% per day of stored charge. That's 30% per month. Not a problem if you're utilising them all the time but not great if you leave them for a while. Other lithium options have rates that vary between 2 & 5% and even this can be mitigated with a good BMS or balancing system in line with a tiny trickle charge.

Maintenance - just like flooded lead acid batteries NiFe will require electrolyte checks. The life of these batteries is supposedly huge - 50 years plus - but that assumes diligent maintenance.

Lastly - cost - the current UK retail rate for these batteries is around £440/kWH which is comparable to LiFePO4 for example. But whilst the cost is comparable the efficiency and other points above really knock that cost up massively.

I would go with Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4).

LiFePO4 batteries have overwhelming advantages;
Much lighter and easier to handle.
Much more efficient - charge/discharge efficiency is over 90%.
The have low self discharge.
They are low maintenance - no electrolytes to check.
They have simpler charge requirements - ie - you don't have to have get into equalisation charging although you will need a BMS (battery management system) to ensure overcharging and cutoff are managed so as to not cause damage.
There is almost no Peukert effect. That is to say you can discharge them at very high rates without loss of capacity.

While NiFe do have some good points - they are used extensively in large scale solar projects due to the huge charge rate they can accept - there are much better options for smaller installations.

If asked I wouldn't recommend them for a boat installation.

Cheers





Mike

'Who says you can't get 43 boats on Ranworth Island'
'Ubique Loquimur' - We Speak Everywhere!


This message was edited by Loughrigg on Aug-3-21 @ 11:26 PM

annville
Aug-04-2021 @ 10:39 AM                           Permalink
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Thanks for that, Mike size and weight are not a issue along with a auto top up kite, cost per cycle is the big advantage along with longevity, BUT things do change quite rapidly so not craved in stone, have to sell this one first. John

Marshman
Aug-05-2021 @ 10:02 AM                           Permalink
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Aspen petrol is not specially easy to find but Stihl do exactly the same stuff, and often cheaper.

The 2 stroke is premixed and burns much cleaner - you are not followed around by a blue haze and and you get much easier starting and you get the benefit of longer storage. It is virtually benzene free and does not give off anything like the pollutants that ordinary petrol give. All in all  a better alternative - but more expensive naturally!!!

Paladine
Aug-05-2021 @ 1:04 PM                           Permalink
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Both the Aspen and Stihl websites have a 'dealer finder' facility, so neither product is difficult to find. The price difference is a couple of quid per 5 litres, so it really boils down to which dealer is the nearest. Any saving one over the other can easily be lost by having to travel further to get it  Confused

Been hit by another boat? Report the incident to the Marine Accident Investigation Branch’s dedicated accident reporting line on 023 8023 2527 which is monitored 24 hours a day.  Help to make the Broads safer.

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