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Discussion Topic: E10 Petrol
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pargeandmarge |
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Hi All
A technical question will we be able to run E10 petrol in a dingy outboard or should we use super unleaded?
Will it affect others with inboard or outboard petrol engines or is it down to year of manufacture?
Regards
Marge and Parge
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Paladine |
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There is a lot of information here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained
I would think that, as it's being recommended NOT to use E10 in petrol-driven lawn mowers and generators, owners of smaller o/b motors should think carefully and, perhaps, contact the manufacturer. Also owners of older petrol-powered boats, such as Freemans, would be advised to use the higher grade of petrol.
Without getting political, I also think it's a load of b*ll*cks. What might be saved by such a move (including diesel) in terms of pollutants being emitted comes to nothing while the major pollutors, such as USA, China, India, continue to belch out pollutants in staggering quantities. The view from the moral high ground might be good, but it don't mean a lot in real terms!
Been hit by another boat? Report the incident to the Marine Accident Investigation Branch’s dedicated accident reporting line on 023 8023 2527 which is monitored 24 hours a day. Help to make the Broads safer.
This message was edited by Paladine on Aug-2-21 @ 4:11 PM
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Paladine |
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Mudplug Juggler
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I have also read this: "The DfT has suggested that E5 fuel might only be available for five years - potentially removed from pumps in September 2026.
After this date, the regulation will be reviewed to decide whether E5 should be retained or if it will fall on owners to turn to specially-created fuel additives for their older machines."
So, if you've got an older petrol engine in your boat, you may have to consider having a diesel engine (or newer petrol engine) installed, or changing your boat before the market catches on.
Been hit by another boat? Report the incident to the Marine Accident Investigation Branch’s dedicated accident reporting line on 023 8023 2527 which is monitored 24 hours a day. Help to make the Broads safer.
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Loughrigg |
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Where to start,
Almost all modern outboards will at least tolerate E10, and i think tolerate is the optimal word here. The outboard industry has made concerned noises about the potential damage to fuel systems, and especially for the safety of boat owners.
The real cause of damage to marine engines is dissolved fuel system components being deposited inside sensitive modern engines.
The risks for boat owners come from three key characteristics of ethanol.
* It’s a (very) powerful solvent,
* It doesn’t stay mixed with petrol, and
* It has a very short shelf life.
The solvent nature means that it dissolves some of the components of fibreglass fuel tanks, as well as many elastomer (rubber like) materials found in fuel systems. These pass through the best filters and end up forming destructive deposits inside marine engines.
Basically, the Ethanol component will dissolve dirt and residues in your fuel system you didn't even know you had.
The chemical attack on tanks and hoses mean the inevitable leaks are a fire risk. That means a fire risk, or at best, a powerful solvent attack to the bilge surfaces. And for inboard petrol, if those surfaces are GRP - it'll attack those as well.
Ethanol and petrol will 'separate' under normal, moist boating conditions, and that action concentrates the ethanol, so it can do even more damage.
Ethanol has higher volatility than most elements of petrol, meaning it evaporates off first. That means it may go ‘sour’ in as little as 2 weeks.
Ethanol is hygroscopic and absorbs moisture (approx 10 times the level E5) just like brake fluid and diesel fuel. Up to 0.5% absorption is not a problem, but beyond that, the saturated ethanol sinks to the bottom of the tank in a process called Phase Separation. I've attached a pic (courtesy of Mercury Marine). The saturated ethanol is at the bottom.
No amount of stirring or shaking will mix the ethanol back with the petrol, and there are no proven additives that will fix the problem. So that leaves us with some undesirable side effects.
There are some expensive fuel additives on the market with vague claims about helping the situation but none even claim to be able to stop phase separation before it commences.
After phase separation, 100% petrol is floating at the top of the tank. That sounds great until you realize that the missing ethanol was the all important octane booster.
So the first sign of separated fuel may be pre-ignition or pinging as the octane in the remaining fuel drops about 3 points.
As the phase-separated ethanol builds up at the bottom of the tank, it eventually reaches the fuel pick-up tube. At this moment, we get a 100% dose of water saturated ethanol through a fuel system and engine designed to cope with no more than 10%.
In nearly pure form you'll be surprised how strong a solvent ethanol can be. The result is some real damage to engines and fittings, and a high risk of fuel leaks. The moisture that causes separation will always collect in fuel tanks (with breather pipes) particularly in hot summer weather when the temperature differential is highest. Humid air is drawn in through the tank breather and as the days cools into evening and night, condenses on the walls of the tank, runs down the walls, and is immediately attracted to the ethanol.
Bingo - Phase Seperation and imminent damage to systems.
While, the claim that most 'modern' engines will cope that's only if all your associated components parts are Ethanol resistant. That's an expensive way to run your engine assuming you can even find the necessary resistant parts.
My advice (and the advice i'm taking for myself) - is avoid, avoid avoid. Change over to E5 Super if you can't find E5 standard.
Oh and btw - if your into the Green agenda or just care even alittle about our flora and fauna, in America and Australia, tests have shown that the inefficient burning of Ethanol in both old AND new engine has ended up with large concentrations of Ethanol being deposited into waters - poor old fishes. This then seperates into a layer that gets sucked into engine raw water systems and attacks the component rubber parts and fittings.
Karen has intimated that this might be the opportune time to change to a rag n stick - never i say, NEVER!!!:eg:
Mike
'Who says you can't get 43 boats on Ranworth Island'
'Ubique Loquimur' - We Speak Everywhere!
This message was edited by Loughrigg on Aug-2-21 @ 6:52 PM
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Loughrigg |
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Sorry couldn't add the photo to my post so here it is.
Mike
'Who says you can't get 43 boats on Ranworth Island'
'Ubique Loquimur' - We Speak Everywhere!
View Full Size Image
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pargeandmarge |
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Thanks both for really thorough answers my mind is made up.
kindest Regards
Marge and Parge
P.S tell Karen to mind the quant on the underside of a bridge as it may jar her arms. 
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Paladine |
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Loughrigg wrote, ”My advice (and the advice i'm taking for myself) - is avoid, avoid avoid. Change over to E5 Super if you can't find E5 standard.”
This is a very serious matter and, having done some more research, including looking at what manufacturers are saying, I totally agree with that sentiment. Not just for boat engines and gardening equipment either. Mrs P’s little petrol-engined car only does about 2,000 miles a year, and that was pre-Covid. With a shelf-life of around 2 weeks from leaving the refinery, this new fuel simply won’t cope with sitting in the fuel tank for weeks on end.
Been hit by another boat? Report the incident to the Marine Accident Investigation Branch’s dedicated accident reporting line on 023 8023 2527 which is monitored 24 hours a day. Help to make the Broads safer.
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Dykedweller |
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I had a new McCulloch hedge trimmer which was working fine, when I went to use it the next time it wouldn’t start. Further investigation revealed that the black rubber fuel pipe within the fuel tank was now just a piece of black jelly. Even after replacing this it never performed as well again presumably because of of particles still floating about
in the carburettor. I now use premium petrol in all of my garden implements and the time has probably come to change to premium in our low mileage cars.
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FreemanBattyBat |
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A similar story of doom was rife when E5 came on the scene. Owning a Freeman with a petrol engine ( early crossflow Escort type) myself and most owners in a similar situation were concerned. It transpired the awful predictions were overstated as most marine version engines of this type run cool and at 2000rpm maximum most of the time the effects seem minimal.
However with the change to E10 owners are being advised to change to Super unleaded ( Esso claim theirs contain 0% ethanol but regulations insist they label it E5) The only hope is that 0% super unleaded will remain available despite Mr P's information it won't be after a certain date.
I also agree the fact that our small island will make no concernable difference whilst others pollute willy nilly.
Freeman F23 Flittermouse moored near
Geldeston
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annville |
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Hi Thats as maybe who were the biggest polluters in Victorian times with the industrial revolution? Sin's of the Fathers comes to mind. why should just the rest of the world pay more, we must all do our bit. John
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Aug-02-2021 @ 3:38 PM
