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The Norfolk Broads Forum / Broads Boat Owners Q & A / Diesel Fuel Issues
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Posted By Discussion Topic: Diesel Fuel Issues

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Regulo
Mar-05-2010 @ 2:56 PM                           Permalink
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Mardles sometimes
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THanks for all the useful replies.

I wonder, given all the upheaval and effort put into this, whether HM revenue are getting a useful "income" from boating fuel, given it must be a tiny fraction of road fuel tax income. Bureaucracy gone mad, if you ask me, for minimal gain.

Best regards, Ray.

Happiness: Wanting what you have, not having what you want.

paul&lorna
Mar-05-2010 @ 2:58 PM                           Permalink
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For comparison, our local supplier is 64ppl at the pump for domestic red. I've found some BP garages also do it but a couple of pence dearer.

paul

kfurbank
Mar-05-2010 @ 3:19 PM                           Permalink
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Ray,

It's not often that I stick up for HM Customs or this government, but for years they applied for derogation to the EU which meant that leisure boating diesel usage was exempt from full taxation. In the EU leisure boating diesel usage was taxed more than here, hence the derogation, but not as high as road usage, they have an additional tax band for leisure usage. The EU got fed up with the UK keep applying for derogation and getting cheaper diesel for leisure boating and indicated that they would have to bring tax in line with the rest of the EU. The UK did apply for derogation again, but as expected it was turned down. The UK also had made no effort to work out what to do when derogation ended, effectively giving us another unofficial 12 months breathing space whilst they worked out what to do.

They didn't like the idea of policing another tax band on diesel, which would have bought us into line with the EU, they couldn't keep the lower tax rate and the option of full tax on leisure boating didn't go down well with the boating industry. There was then the added complication of heating or domestic usage on boats and how to tax that. In the end they went for full taxation on propulsion rather than introduce an additional band, making propulsion diesel more expensive than the EU, but softened the blow with the lower tax for the heating and domestic portion and indicating that the 60/40 which is a generous split would be unlikely to attract any interest from HM Customs. Compared to the costs of changing from Red to White diesel, or having to run separate fuel tanks, marinas having to sell White and Red etc, it was a fairly good compromise.

The UK government probably doesn't make much extra tax out of this, but the issue was forced by Brussels and in this case the UK really didn't want it. Why the government didn't just turn around and ignore the EU as so many other EU countries do when it suits them is beyond me.

Keith

zacthedog
Mar-05-2010 @ 7:32 PM                           Permalink
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has there ever been a case of anyone having to prove that tax has been paid - not paid, on the fuel in there tanks ???

Gary
1hr 45mins 66mls away

ncsl
Mar-05-2010 @ 7:42 PM                           Permalink
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Thanks for the replys regarding my heating use.

All I want is about 10 - 15 gals per year for the ebespacher, so guess I would be better off phoning around.  Confused

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Regulo
Mar-05-2010 @ 8:05 PM                           Permalink
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Keith,

What a nightmare!!  As you explain it, it seems we have got off lightly. I certainly don't use 40% of my diesel for heating (more like 4%), so we shouldn't complain too strongly. Wonder how long this situation will last before we're instructed by Brussels to charge full tax on boat fuel. As you say, we Brits seem to delight in firmly following dictats, while every other country shrugs its shoulders and ignores them.

Regards, Ray

Happiness: Wanting what you have, not having what you want.

dannyb1
Mar-06-2010 @ 9:20 PM                           Permalink
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this is all very complex, confusing and like everything else open to total abuse.

I have seen very little benefit to my fuel bills even with this 60/40 split. I still seemed to be paying only marginally less than it would have cost me to fill up with tescos white diesel so something must be array and I think that might lie with the boat yard.

We all know what they are like, they dont exactly display their fuel prices on a big lit up sign like service stations have to do they, and personally they should as I think they make it up half the time depending on how switched on they think you look.  Tesco couldn't get away with it could they?  Not having a actual fuel meter on display in my opinion is a bit shady,  and when it involves money, I trust no one.

I have an oil boiler and when I order oil, I ring round all the suppliers in my local norfolk area and play one off against the other for as long as it takes for me to get the best possible price, home heating oil suppliers will also sell you red diesel (they call it gas oil) at a current rate of approx 53 pence per litre if you buy 500 litres.

This is what I mean by open to abuse, not that I would suggest for one minute I am doing this but what is there to stop me if I really wanted to?  I could claim I only use it for heating, how can they police it and would they even bother at 500 litres per year, I doubt it.  

Anyway my point was, taking into account red diesel at full tax and red diesel at home heating tax, there is still a big difference in price per litre and this doesn't seem to be very noticable when buying 100 litres at 60/40 from your local boatyard.  

Stuff the EU

Cheers
Danny

Dibbler
Apr-27-2010 @ 2:44 PM                           Permalink
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The following posts were removed from the Diesel Prices thread today...

boughtit 27/04/10 11:42am :-

As a newby to the private boating scene can anyone tell me if the 60/40 split on Diesel is offered as standard when you refuel or do you have to request it?

As I am just round the corner to Brooms I will have to try them next time I fill up - guess they are the cheapest cause they sell a lot filling their monster craft up!



Still-Cruising 27/04/10 12:55pm :-

We usually fill up at Moonfleet and they will do whatever split you ask for as I believe most yards do. I always ask for a 60/40 split but we were refused last year at Horizon’s.

Best Regards

Bob








John

Dibbler
Jun-08-2012 @ 10:21 AM                           Permalink
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The following posts were removed from the Diesel Prices thread today...

BroadAmbition 08/06/12 08:52am :-

Diesel Prices,

I'm somewhat Confused here  Confused and hopefully some knowledgeable forumite can clear it up for me

Road going diesel is charged with the full tax rate applied and is currently selling at around £1:36 per litre

Red diesel for marine leisure use is charged with a 60/40 split with 60 percent being full taxed for propulsion and 40 percent less taxed for heating

So why therefore are many yards charging a higher rate that the full taxed road going diesel?


Griff



Maurice_Mynah 08/06/12 09:00am :-

Although most boats on the broads that have heating use diesel for it, I would imagine that it is recognised that the 60/40 split is far from  appropriate. and that therefore the tax is based on 100% engine usage.
The reason the cost is sometimes a little above the standard prices will be that the turnover will be so slow compared with garage forecourt turnover, that charging that bit extra is the only way supplying it can be financially viable. Well, that's my take on it Smile



BroadAmbition 08/06/12 09:16am :-

M_M  Surely the yards cannot just take it upon themselves to hike the tax up to the 100 percent mark, they would be fraudulently overtaxing the consumer and we would all be entitled to refunds.

The turnover thing, I was too under that impression as well.  However the yards that are presently charging 20 - 25p less are a lot smaller than the big boys and have a smaller turnover as a result which blows that theory well and truly out of the water


Griff
  



John

This message was edited by Dibbler on Jun-8-12 @ 10:22 AM

Paladine
Jun-08-2012 @ 10:31 AM                           Permalink
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I don't class myself as 'knowledgeable' on the subject, but yards that charge the full tax rate aren't doing anything wrong. It's surely up to the buyer to point out that 40% is for heating and ask for a reduction. After all, if you haven't got a diesel heater on board you're not entitled to the tax reduction. If the yard still charges the higher rate, the extra won't go to the tax man, it will go in the seller's pocket.

Try going into Tesco's at Stalham and ask to buy their fuel at the same price as is charged at the Gt Yarmouth Tesco's  tounge-in-cheek

Jean&Brian
Jun-08-2012 @ 2:56 PM                           Permalink
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Griff

Being a bit cynical my take on it is quiet simple, the smaller independent yards who rely on our custom treat us fairly whilst some hire yards who happily rip off their own customers wouldn`t have any problem doing the same to us with the tax issue being irrelavent.

The answer lies in the purpose of the original thread shop around and avoid the rip off merchants.

         Brian  Tinhat

Member Victor Meldrew Appreciation Society

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