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The Norfolk Broads Forum / Broads Boat Owners Q & A / Diesel Fuel Issues
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Posted By Discussion Topic: Diesel Fuel Issues

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Regulo
Mar-05-2010 @ 8:05 PM                           Permalink
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Keith,

What a nightmare!!  As you explain it, it seems we have got off lightly. I certainly don't use 40% of my diesel for heating (more like 4%), so we shouldn't complain too strongly. Wonder how long this situation will last before we're instructed by Brussels to charge full tax on boat fuel. As you say, we Brits seem to delight in firmly following dictats, while every other country shrugs its shoulders and ignores them.

Regards, Ray

Happiness: Wanting what you have, not having what you want.

dannyb1
Mar-06-2010 @ 9:20 PM                           Permalink
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this is all very complex, confusing and like everything else open to total abuse.

I have seen very little benefit to my fuel bills even with this 60/40 split. I still seemed to be paying only marginally less than it would have cost me to fill up with tescos white diesel so something must be array and I think that might lie with the boat yard.

We all know what they are like, they dont exactly display their fuel prices on a big lit up sign like service stations have to do they, and personally they should as I think they make it up half the time depending on how switched on they think you look.  Tesco couldn't get away with it could they?  Not having a actual fuel meter on display in my opinion is a bit shady,  and when it involves money, I trust no one.

I have an oil boiler and when I order oil, I ring round all the suppliers in my local norfolk area and play one off against the other for as long as it takes for me to get the best possible price, home heating oil suppliers will also sell you red diesel (they call it gas oil) at a current rate of approx 53 pence per litre if you buy 500 litres.

This is what I mean by open to abuse, not that I would suggest for one minute I am doing this but what is there to stop me if I really wanted to?  I could claim I only use it for heating, how can they police it and would they even bother at 500 litres per year, I doubt it.  

Anyway my point was, taking into account red diesel at full tax and red diesel at home heating tax, there is still a big difference in price per litre and this doesn't seem to be very noticable when buying 100 litres at 60/40 from your local boatyard.  

Stuff the EU

Cheers
Danny

Dibbler
Apr-27-2010 @ 2:44 PM                           Permalink
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The following posts were removed from the Diesel Prices thread today...

boughtit 27/04/10 11:42am :-

As a newby to the private boating scene can anyone tell me if the 60/40 split on Diesel is offered as standard when you refuel or do you have to request it?

As I am just round the corner to Brooms I will have to try them next time I fill up - guess they are the cheapest cause they sell a lot filling their monster craft up!



Still-Cruising 27/04/10 12:55pm :-

We usually fill up at Moonfleet and they will do whatever split you ask for as I believe most yards do. I always ask for a 60/40 split but we were refused last year at Horizon’s.

Best Regards

Bob








John

Dibbler
Jun-08-2012 @ 10:21 AM                           Permalink
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The following posts were removed from the Diesel Prices thread today...

BroadAmbition 08/06/12 08:52am :-

Diesel Prices,

I'm somewhat Confused here  Confused and hopefully some knowledgeable forumite can clear it up for me

Road going diesel is charged with the full tax rate applied and is currently selling at around £1:36 per litre

Red diesel for marine leisure use is charged with a 60/40 split with 60 percent being full taxed for propulsion and 40 percent less taxed for heating

So why therefore are many yards charging a higher rate that the full taxed road going diesel?


Griff



Maurice_Mynah 08/06/12 09:00am :-

Although most boats on the broads that have heating use diesel for it, I would imagine that it is recognised that the 60/40 split is far from  appropriate. and that therefore the tax is based on 100% engine usage.
The reason the cost is sometimes a little above the standard prices will be that the turnover will be so slow compared with garage forecourt turnover, that charging that bit extra is the only way supplying it can be financially viable. Well, that's my take on it Smile



BroadAmbition 08/06/12 09:16am :-

M_M  Surely the yards cannot just take it upon themselves to hike the tax up to the 100 percent mark, they would be fraudulently overtaxing the consumer and we would all be entitled to refunds.

The turnover thing, I was too under that impression as well.  However the yards that are presently charging 20 - 25p less are a lot smaller than the big boys and have a smaller turnover as a result which blows that theory well and truly out of the water


Griff
  



John

This message was edited by Dibbler on Jun-8-12 @ 10:22 AM

Paladine
Jun-08-2012 @ 10:31 AM                           Permalink
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I don't class myself as 'knowledgeable' on the subject, but yards that charge the full tax rate aren't doing anything wrong. It's surely up to the buyer to point out that 40% is for heating and ask for a reduction. After all, if you haven't got a diesel heater on board you're not entitled to the tax reduction. If the yard still charges the higher rate, the extra won't go to the tax man, it will go in the seller's pocket.

Try going into Tesco's at Stalham and ask to buy their fuel at the same price as is charged at the Gt Yarmouth Tesco's  tounge-in-cheek

Jean&Brian
Jun-08-2012 @ 2:56 PM                           Permalink
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Griff

Being a bit cynical my take on it is quiet simple, the smaller independent yards who rely on our custom treat us fairly whilst some hire yards who happily rip off their own customers wouldn`t have any problem doing the same to us with the tax issue being irrelavent.

The answer lies in the purpose of the original thread shop around and avoid the rip off merchants.

         Brian  Tinhat

Member Victor Meldrew Appreciation Society

JonS1959
Jun-08-2012 @ 3:28 PM                           Permalink
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My experience is that at various yards around the region the comment is "what ever split you want the price advertised is what you pay". Lets look at it from the yards perspective, they buy 'x' litres at 'x' price per litre. At the end of the quarter Customs and Excise want their little slice. Do you realistically expect the yards to top say well Mr y had 5% because it was all heating and Mr z had a 60/40 split Ms c had 50/50 because she feels the cold. The system is not workable so I suspect the boat yards buy the fuel a x price and add the required duty for road use, hence the same price as you local garage. Forget all the split nonsense and accept you buy heating oil at white diesel prices. Do you and your engine a favor and buy a jerry can and visit your local Tesco.

JonS1959

Would you really put a monument of a national treasure ......... in an industrial estate......

Poppy
Jun-08-2012 @ 3:40 PM                           Permalink
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"Do you and your engine a favor and buy a jerry can and visit your local Tesco."

then there's always the option of fitting sails..... Evil Grin

If I'd wanted to live in a Banana republic, I'd have chosen one with a better climate!

JonS1959
Jun-08-2012 @ 3:51 PM                           Permalink
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Why, has the world run out of natural resources then and nobody mentioned it................ Scared

JonS1959

Would you really put a monument of a national treasure ......... in an industrial estate......

WhisperingReeds
Jun-08-2012 @ 3:52 PM                           Permalink
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I usually refrain from posting in the more contentious threads.  Running a business you have to ask yourself what you stand to gain or lose, but this one is interesting, and I think posting some real world figures might help to clear some things up or at least add to the debate.

There's a ton of numbers below.  In response to JonS1959's post, a couple above mine, you can see that if we were selling and declaring the lot at road duty rates, but telling you it was 60/40 we'd be even worse off.  Personally I'll only sell the diesel at 60/40, if you want a different rate, you can go elsewhere.  It's not worth the bother to mess around with other rates, or expect the Sunday lad to cope with it all, it really isn't.

Anyway, the numbers.

I'll work backwards, and assume we've sold 1 litre of fuel for £1.25 at 60/40 split.

Retail price of diesel at £1.25 per litre

After VAT that's £1.19

40% of £1.19 is £0.47, We get all of that, but 60% is £0.72 and out of that £0.72 there is additional duty of £0.47 to pay to HMRC. So we only get £0.25 of it.

So out of £1.25, £0.53 in total goes to the government.  VAT at the end of each quarter, the additional duty in one big cheque each November.

My current tank load of diesel cost £0.70 pence per litre

Sale price £1.25
HM Government gets £0.53
My purchase price £0.70

Gross profit on the sale of 1 litre of diesel?

£0.02

That's without paying the lad to dispense it.

I just had to replace the underground pipe from my tank to the pump at a cost of £1,300.  

How many litres of diesel do I have to sell to recoup that?  65,000 litres.  How much diesel do I expect to sell this year.  Not including that which goes in my own dayboats?  Perhaps 1500 litres?

So, a payback time on the new underground pipe of 43 years.

You're not being ripped off for diesel at the riverside.

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