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Posted By Discussion Topic: Average fuel usage??

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BobtheBoater
Aug-05-2012 @ 5:43 PM                           Permalink
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Just done the sums, on our 13 days away, 7 with one yard 6 with another..

7 days did about 35 hrs cruising (give or take, its probably nearer 30) no heating used no running for showers just cruising, used 60 quids worth of fuel which we were told on return was average, perkins engine on hydraulic drive. cruising not racing, not against the tide etc.

second week 6 days about 26 hrs (give or take alot again) no heating no running for showers / water) used 90 quids worth of fuel (told this was average) nanni diesel on hydraulic drive, cruising not racing, not against the tide etc.

smells a bit to me, any thoughts??

psychicsurveyor
Aug-05-2012 @ 6:56 PM                           Permalink
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Hi, I have the identical set up on each of my boats, the perkins is more economic to run than the nanni, The perkins is 38 years old and the nanni is 3 years old, so much for progress  Confused
They are 29 feet and 32 feet, both are broads boats.

Mark

--------------------------------
Some days all I need is to have a
beer and be afloat.


This message was edited by psychicsurveyor on Aug-5-12 @ 6:57 PM

waterbuoy
Aug-05-2012 @ 9:18 PM                           Permalink
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Before this site crashed the other day, there was a discussion about fuel consumption. Londonrascal observed the large discrepancy between Nanni and other engines. I thought this was a bit odd, as the basic fuel and engine has a specific calorific value and a finite efficiency. This implies that unless engines are specifically tweaked to improve their efficiency, that a standard manufacturer supplied engine from any of the mainstream suppliers would not give such wide discrepancies. So I don't think its the engine manufacturer that is at fault. take a look as the fuel consumption figures offered by the manufacturer, on line. It is likely to be the gearing or more likely the propeller setup. The use of hydraulics will reduce the efficiency a little, but has other advantages, but in your examples hydraulics were used in both cases, so I suspect its the propeller set up. Perhaps one hire company prefers to use a higher prop or gear ratio and keep the engine revs higher. This will reduce the glazing of the cylinder bores, and thus reduce the long-term issues with the engines.


Clive

Home - IP11 & Away - NR12



This message was edited by waterbuoy on Aug-5-12 @ 9:36 PM

londonrascal
Aug-06-2012 @ 1:25 AM                           Permalink
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All I can say is my real world experiences.

I’ve no idea how many hours I cruise, and I don’t record how many litres is used – just how much the cost is at the end of the holiday.

In July 2011 I hired Star Gem from Richardson’s this has a 40HP Nanni on shaft and over a 3 night break we used £39.38 in fuel.

In September 2011 I hired Merrymore from Barnes Brinkcraft this has a 40HP Nanni on shaft and over a 4 night break with minimal heating we used £36.65.

In October 2011 I hired Commanding Light from Herbet Woods.  This had a Perkins 4.108 engine on shaft and we used £88.60 for 7 nights – minimal heating (this was the famous super hot October of 2011).

February 2012 I hired Flight of Freedom this has the same Nanni 40HP engine on shaft drive as Merrymore did.  3 night break using a lot of heating cost just over £40.00 (lost exact cost)

In April 2012 I hired San Julian from Richardson’s this had a Nanni 38HP engine (these rev higher than the 40HP units) on shaft and cost £99.00 dead for 7 nights.  A lot of cruising and some heating was used.

In July 2012 I hired Far Horizon this has a Nanni 38HP on Hydraulic drive.  No heating used and this was a 3 night break and came to £99.00 (few pennies over but i forget exactly).


So my experience is that on a short break without using much heating you can get under £40.00 and with heating about £40.00  - On a week with an older engine on shaft you can get in for under £90.00 but with a new Nanni engine the cost rises.  With Hydrolytic drive it gets silly.

I have a theory.

Unrestricted a 40HP Nanni engine will rev to 2,800RPM. An unrestricted 38HP Nanni engine will rev to 3,000RPM – Clearly with less power (only 2HP) a 38HP engine is having to rev higher to do the same speed as the 40HP unit.  Couple that to the load a Hydraulic drive puts on, coupled with hydraulic bow thrusters I can only guess one has a recipe for more fuel usage.

An old BMC or Perkins however might not be so kind to the environment, may burn more oil but seem far more frugal on actual fuel.  

Increasingly Richardson’s are updating their fleet with new Nanni 40HP and 38HP engines – no other boatyard (to my knowledge) has such an aggressive re-engine program.  I think it is good because the engines are quieter, do run smoother and are more responsive (they are new after all) but I do suspect the underlying base the Nanni engine is based upon might not be as fuel efficient – great in a Toyota van maybe not so good in a broads cruiser...


| Robin |

Norfolk Broads - LIVE!
01.09.2012

ranworthbreeze
Aug-06-2012 @ 10:01 AM                           Permalink
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With our boat the fuel costs including pump out of both toilet tanks can be anywhere between £100 & £190 dependant if we go onto the northern rivers (Yarmouth permitting). This year however more fuel used due to having the heating on most of the time.

To give you a comparison we were billed for £75.00 taking over a narrow boat earlier in the year, when we got home we were billed for a further £68.00.
We had however to cruise for 10 to 12 hours a day for 6 days in order to complete the Cheshire Ring and again we had the heating on quite a lot.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
Ranworth Breeze Boat Syndicate

SOS247
Aug-07-2012 @ 1:27 AM                           Permalink
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Just for information an engine fitted with an hydraulic drive (plus a hydraulic bow thruster)  looses approx 25% to 30% in power. So therefore the rpm will need to be increased to reach the same sort of speeds etc, compared with a traditional gearbox drive.

Also the idle speeds are normally approx 850-950rpm to cope with high alternator outputs, compared with 650rpm on the older BmC & Perkins engines.

Over a longish holiday the extra fuel consumption would be noticed.

This don't seem to be the 'green' way to go but unfortunately its boat design & number of berths that dictate the direction.  

Therefore,  a Bmc or Perkins on hydraulic drives fitted with high powered alternators would generally use more fuel then the modern Kubota based units anyway.

Its just progress but the hire fleets don't really mind as they would sell a greater amount of diesel!!

      

They say that 'Hard work never killed anyone' however, sleepless nights, stress, not taking breaks & not eating correctly may just get you there early!!

BroadAmbition
Aug-07-2012 @ 6:36 AM                           Permalink
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The last post statistics are well known, well they are known by our regular 'Lads Week' crews anyway.

Before now we have had three hire oats out for the week, in one particular week one of the boats was fitted with the hydraulic drive system.  All the craft obviously went to the same destinations as the other two but used over a third more diesel compared to the other two.  This has happened on more than one occasion.  As a result we now do our level best to avoid the hydraulic drive options.  As well as using more diesel hydraulic drives are more often than not noisier too seeing as the hydraulic pumps are far noisier than a mechanical gearbox.

They are also often so much more expensive to fix if the develop a problem.

So those of you that need to watch the £'s spent on diesel during a weeks hire (Like us) may wish to avoid picking a boat with the noisier more expensive hydraulic drive units.

The only advantage I can think of where hydraulic drive is concerned is that they are so versatile and give boat designers so much more variety of locations for engine/drive placement


Griff

'Broad Ambition'
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Grendel
Aug-07-2012 @ 10:08 AM                           Permalink
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Ah proof positive that the boys get their oats on the lads week out.

quote:"......
Before now we have had three hire oats out for the week
......."


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Grendel

we do the impossible every day, miracles take a little longer

JonS1959
Aug-07-2012 @ 2:58 PM                           Permalink
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How do the yards measure how much is left in the tank. Or conversley how do they measure how full it was at the start ?



JonS1959

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londonrascal
Aug-07-2012 @ 3:18 PM                           Permalink
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This seems to cop up a lot – the question of how a boatyard knows how much fuel is in the tank and how it is full.

Some hark back to the days when the tanks were dipped and indeed one had a calibrated ‘dip stick’ on board.  In today’s hire industry dip sticks have been replaced with fully qualified personal ;-)

The fact is how can a yard fiddle a customer?  You take back the boat and in all of the boatyards I have ever hired from the first thing that is done upon return is to fill up the fuel tank.  I’ve always been present during this procedure – as I am sure most hirers who have returned the boat have been.

Be it Herbert Woods, Richardson’s, Freedom...I have always seen the tanks brimmed – sometimes to the extent a little red diesel spills out.  It is therefore without question full.

It may not however be full to the brim upon the next hirer taking over the boat.  How so?  Many yards will as part of pre-checks run the engine.  This will be to ensure it is all okay since the last hire, and help with giving the batteries a charge.  But really the amount of fuel this would take would be what..at most a Litre? About £1.30.

So if one were being super picky you could say that all these odd litres add up over the season and this odd litre here or there that the next hirer takes over will have ‘had used’ before they go out on their holiday may add up.  I’d certainly never say after hand over – “well thank you very much, can you just brim the tank for me because I fear it may have been a litre down while you were running the engine before I got here..”

In short therefore a boatyard knows the tank is full because it is indeed so – without it being full you cannot give the previous customer their fuel refund and woe the boatyard who would just ‘make up’ figures and say to say customer you’ve used 78 litres and here is £15.00 back when in fact the boat had not even been filed with fuel.  I just could not see it happening the risk of wroth would be too great.

As fuel prices increase so does the cost of the deposits and with it my expectation that it may not be sufficient (over a week) to cover for it.  With Richardson’s at least they write to tell you this may be the case, which is handy to a novice to remember to bring a  bit of ‘fuel money’ just in case they had to pay any extra.  

Fuel gauges won’t register the amount of fuel used – consider the size of a fuel tank and the average fuel used they would not begin to move until (at a guess) over a quarter of a tank had been used.  Half a tank would be maybe 150-200 litres of fuel gone (and still remaining in tank) I’ve never used more than 90 litres on a boat period.  

What I think can be forgotten though is how much fuel an hour older hot air heating systems use.  More modern ones with temperature sensors can regulate their used down to about .2L to .5L (200ml to 500ml) an hour depending on their size. Older ones just operate on full and can use .5L to 1L an hour. That is a pain as for example on San Julian it got too hot, so one turned off the heating and 30 mins later was cold and back on it went.  One with room thermostat could have set and forgot and had it on low just ticking over and costing less in process. That of course all costs and after all, at the end of the day large boat yards buying fuel in bulk will make a little on each litre a hirer uses even if a tiny amount of pennies.


| Robin |

Norfolk Broads - LIVE!
01.09.2012

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