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Posted By Discussion Topic: Boats usage from 5/11/20 ?

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Paladine
Nov-04-2020 @ 11:08 PM                           Permalink
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Hmmmm, just a couple of points spring to mind.

"We and other organisations are still waiting for further details to be issued by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) regarding issues such as paddle sports, angling from vessels and night-fishing."

The regulations allow a person "...to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation..."

Try searching 'open air recreation'. The list will include such activities as camping, fishing, cycling, canoeing, kayaking, sailing and motorboating. All of these activities take place in the Broads. There is no mention in the regulations about the time any of these activities must take place, nor over what period of time.

"The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) has advised the Broads Authority and other inland navigation authorities that ‘winterising’ boats and other planned maintenance by the general public is not permitted under the restrictions as it is not classed as ‘essential travel’."

The expression "essential travel" is not used in the regulations, so DEFRA's advice that there is a blanket ban introduced by these regulations is more than suspect. There may have been local restrictions regarding essential travel under the Tier regulations, but they were repealed by these new regs.

RTFM!!!



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-4-20 @ 11:09 PM

Dykedweller
Nov-05-2020 @ 8:18 AM                           Permalink
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Restrictions on leaving home
5.—(1) No person may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse..

I have looked through the “reasonable excuses” in Section 6 and cannot find anything that says to ‘visit your boat’.

RTFM again!

For goodness sake peeps suck it up, it’s only for 4 weeks.



This message was edited by Dykedweller on Nov-5-20 @ 8:33 AM

Paladine
Nov-05-2020 @ 8:57 AM                           Permalink
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It’s no good simply pointing out bits of the regulations that suit your argument. There are exceptions to the ‘don’t leave home’ restriction, which must be taken into account.

Private boating, in all its forms, is an open air recreational activity, and is permitted. As is exercise, which could be running for miles, or just walking a few hundred yards with a walking frame.

It is naive to expect any legislation to specify its effect in the minutest detail. I would point to the literal rule of statutory interpretation which says that, unless defined in the statute, the words of the statute are given their natural or ordinary meaning and applied without seeking to put a gloss on the words or seeking to make sense of the statute.



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-5-20 @ 9:03 AM

ruby
Nov-05-2020 @ 10:42 AM                           Permalink
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Just to make sure I have got this right.

I can drive to my boat and fish or exercise from it at its mooring .

I can employ someone else to drive to my boat and work on it.

But I can't drive to my boat and work on it myself.

Am I missing something ?

Graham

L'sBelles
Nov-05-2020 @ 11:16 AM                           Permalink
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"I can employ someone else to drive to my boat and work on it.
But I can't drive to my boat and work on it myself."

That's the way I read the legislation. Daft, isn't it?
A bit like stopping people going into outdoor football grounds but allowing them to group together indoors and watch it on a TV screen or not allowing single players go for a round of golf as part of their exercise.

Like many of these emergency Government Bills it is simply a jumble of knee jerk reactions with no joined up thinking. I see that Liverpool infection rates have been falling rapidly since Tier 3 was introduced a few weeks ago with Knowsley going from the country's worst to 36th worst area but none of the "experts" wanted you to know that prior to the lock-down 2 commencing.

In mitigation, my wife and I have applied common sense since this all started in March and have not socialised indoors with anyone other than her mother who we care for so apart from my restoration work having to cease on our boat for the duration of this latest panic we will not really notice any difference!

Dykedweller
Nov-05-2020 @ 11:22 AM                           Permalink
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Graham
Yes, you are missing the point that there is a nasty virus out there which is killing thousands of people and our Government is trying to  curtail this by keeping us apart as much as possible without impacting on our economy such that it would result in many more deaths.
We have two choices, do everything we can to comply with the advice given as far as possible or seek each and every way we can to find ways of getting round the advice. I choose to take the first option to try to safeguard my fellow citizens of this country, that is all that I can do to help.
For those that will start spouting the law:-
“Laws serve as a norm of conduct for citizens and act as a guidance of acceptable behaviour “.


Karen&Mike
Nov-05-2020 @ 12:46 PM                           Permalink
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A few observations from me:

Those who have followed  the rules and guidance will pretty much continue to do so.
Those who haven't , won't.
After varying measures with equally varying results, those who care and are interested, will inevitably question things.
And those who don't care, won't.

It may "only be a month"as DD puts it,  but for those who have now lost their jobs, in anticipation of the furlough schemes orginal end date, that month likely means another month without the opportunity for interviews, let alone a new job and money to pay the bills.
Those redundancies are not just in the hospitality and tourism areas either.

Those with a boat paid for with hard earned money, may be facing the prospect of having to sell that investment to survive the economic challenges they face as a result of Covid, so brusquely shutting shop as it were, at a marina for example, and not allowing access for even basic winterisation , is another blow. If that person is facing financial worries then to be forced to pay a business to do it for them may just not be a viable option.

These are real worries for many people, and to shove them all to one side because it's "just a month" could be seen to be almost as selfish as those who refuse to wear masks for example.

There are many layers to this, many different impacts, and lots of questionable rules, ill thought through guidance, and varying interpretations. It's inevitable there will be debate.

From a personal perspective, we've followed rules and guidance all year, not seen family or friends. We've also had some hard times to deal with as a direct result of Covid, and we will stay home now as requested, BUT I see no end to this lockdown loop until we:

a) have a proven vaccine
b) somehow address the inconsistencies in rules & interpretations, the lack of action against those ( groups and individuals ) who repeatedly ignore everything, particularly as this fuels discontent.

I'm sure we all want this to be over, however, it is simply inevitable that as covid continues it's march, the consequences widen and then concerns rise as the impact does.

Karen




"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Nov-5-20 @ 9:19 PM

Paladine
Nov-05-2020 @ 10:34 PM                           Permalink
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HMG has today updated their guidance, which can be read in full here  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/guidance-for-the-public-on-the-phased-return-of-outdoor-sport-and-recreation

Points of particular interest to this thread are:

”You can travel for physical activity. Ideally use your nearest, local appropriate venue to reduce pressure on transport infrastructure. But you can travel to outdoor open space irrespective of distance.

You can go fishing alone or with no more than 5 other people.

All forms of water sports practised on open waterways, including sailing, windsurfing, canoeing, rowing, kayaking, surfing, paddle-boarding and the use of privately owned motorised craft (in line with the guidance issued by the relevant navigation authority) are allowed provided that the guidance on social distancing is observed.

You are allowed to visit venues like a sailing club to exercise.”


But it also includes the information:

"From Thursday 5 November, national restrictions supersede the contents of this guidance document, in particular where the document refers to Local COVID Alert Levels. This guidance document can still be used by those businesses which are permitted to operate under the national restrictions, to support those businesses to operate safely."

So that makes everything perfectly clear...doesn't it? Confused




"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-5-20 @ 10:48 PM

Stationerystill
Nov-05-2020 @ 11:28 PM                           Permalink
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I rang the B.A. today. They said I cannot helm my boat or winterise it but I can pay someone else to do it. I expect the engineer I will employ will be immune to Covid 19.

Malcolm Martins

ShannonJoubert
Nov-06-2020 @ 8:59 AM                           Permalink
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Good morning.
The information seems such a grey area.
The RYA says on Twitter:

@RYA
11h
@Sport_England has today confirmed that boaters in England can continue to exercise on the waterways during the current lockdown, so long as you’re doing so in line with Gov guidelines. Look out for our Sail Safe top tips in the coming days #StaySailSafe http://rya.org/uDD750CcNd9

Hylander
Nov-06-2020 @ 9:46 AM                           Permalink
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Thank you for the update Paladine but I am no nearer to understanding any of it quite frankly.   They are saying you cannot use your boat or stay overnight, but now you can use your boat.   You can go paddle boarding sailing and fishing with up to 5 other people (not sure on that one memory is failing)   Do whoever honestly believe that Mr Covid sits there saying oh I wont infect them , they are paddle boarding?   You are supposed to stay at home but you go drive to where for exercise, oh but you can really only go out to do the shopping.     Surely the more contact you have with folk the more chance there is that you will catch it and subsequently spread it further.    

We have to isolate ourselves from anyone other than our own household but how can you state that when someone in the house will go shopping and be near others.   None of it makes any sense.      

Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



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