Topic: Converting sea yacht for use on Broads


Broadreach    -- Dec-28-2017 @ 12:06 PM
  Hi folks

I am hoping to convert a small sea yacht - Sonata, Hunter, Pegasus or similar - for use on the Broads.
The main modification I will need is mast-lowering gear. But I can't find any yard on the Broads that does the work. Also, what are the regs on sea toilets? Can they be used sensibly and occasionally or do they have to be removed or fitted with a holding tank?
I hope I can keep a sealoo as I also intend to use the yacht for occasional coastal cruises.
Can anyone recommend a yard for fitting an A-frame etc? I would prefer a lowering system which can be used quickly and easily for 'shooting' bridges. I sailed wooden Broads yachts for years and loved the counter-weighted masts and tabernacles.

cheers
Broadreach


annville    -- Dec-28-2017 @ 4:03 PM
  Hi Broadreach You could fit a diverter valve to toilet outlet pipe to switch between sea and holding tank for waste disposal/control,or fit two valves for self discharge of waste tank contents.It would be difficult to find space for a counter weight on bottom of mast, hydraulic ram would be more compact way of raising and control dropping with offset guy/haliads wires/ropes. John


Broadreach    -- Dec-28-2017 @ 5:21 PM
  Hi John
Thanks for your ideas. I reckon a holding tank that can be pumped out at sea or ashore would be the best of both worlds. But if a basic sea loo can be used on the Broads, albeit occasionally and sensibly, I would prefer to avoid fitting a holding tank as space is always limited on a 7-metre yacht.
The mast of any yacht I decide to buy will be mounted on the cabin top so there is no way it can be counter-balanced and pivoted in a tabernacle. All I will need is a hinge system for the foot of the mast, an A-frame and a block and tackle for hauling up and down. I just need a firm to supply and fit the gear!
Are A-frames made to measure?
Cheers
Broadreach


turnoar    -- Dec-28-2017 @ 5:28 PM
  Speak to a rigger and get two new shrouds with ss eyes in line with the hinge point, two strops that reach from these to the forestay fitting, a pole between here and the mast and a block and pulleys to gently lower the mast. Set up correctly the mast won’t deviate from the centre line as the strops will stay taught. I’ve used this on a Bermudan rigged broads yacht and it was excellent at circa 35 foot of heavy Ali mast so will be more than adequate for the twenty or so you have to manhandle. Make the pulley line long enough so the pole can go 180 degrees flat back onto the mast for shooting the bridges. This can all be done from the foredeck so you’re safe which is paramount.

Safe voyages wherever ye sail!


Coriolis    -- Dec-28-2017 @ 8:13 PM
  Broadreach - your proposal is easy to accomplish Smile

Your sea toilet can be left fully functional as there are no rules to prevent its use on the Broads (applies to yachts only - mobos need holding tanks)  although I'd suggest it's probably somewhat antisocial to operate it unless  somewhere where a decent current is flowing.  Most Broads yachts have this arrangement and the biggest fuss is made by those who find it distasteful….and conveniently believe that the countless tons of fish, bird and other wildlife excrement is somehow less objectionable – there’s an outcry every time this subject is raised, but it’s not that long ago when all Broads boats discharged overboard as a matter of course.  

On the subject of A frames – while they can be made up to suit (with attendant cost), I have successfully used a single pitch-pole in similar circumstances on a friend’s 22 footer for several years. To expand on Turnoar's excellent suggestion -  In describing it I make 2 assumptions: 1. That the mast is pivoted on a bolt or similar which protrudes a little each side of the tabernacle on the cabin roof (or could be replaced with something longer which would stick out a little), and 2. That the forestay is wire, with a loop at the bottom where it attaches to a rope made fast to a cleat at or about deck level.

The suggestion above of rigging up a pair of sway-braces is an excellent one, but not vital if you take care to only raise and lower in calm water when there’s no big wash rocking you about.

Make your pitch-pole from timber (I used some handy 2x2) long enough to fit between the tabernacle and the forestay.  Make this long enough so there’s no slack (i.e. an inch longer than the distance between the two points; this ensures it doesn’t fall out while you’re not looking!  Make a fork at the mast end such as will locate on the mastbolt - I used a piece of metal strip screwed on each side with fork cut in each, to locate on the mastbolt head & tail.

The only significant load on the pole is in compression - there's little side-load provided you take care to keep the mast centralised sideways-speaking

A long woodscrew with the head cut off makes a spike at the front end of the pole; this is poked through the loop at the bottom of the forestay, simply to keep the pole in place as the mast goes down/up.

When you want to lower, find a sheltered spot to moor, fit the pole between mastbolt and forestay, release the forestay and lower away – without the pole the forestay will fall along the mast and lose mechanical advantage, but the pole will rise as the forestay loop rises, maintaining a triangle which gives you control over everything provided you hang on to the forestay rope.

(Did I mention some crutches or similar should be made up to rest the lowered mast in…. 1 x 1.5 crossed scissor fashion with a bolt as pivot works fine).

Once lowered, the pitch-pole can be removed (otherwise it will be a small mast and catch on the bridge as you go through!) and laid on deck.  At the other side, reverse the process.

Cost? Less than £20, plus a couple of hours with a saw and a few nails.  Not the prettiest solution but works and can be left ashore if the day’s plan doesn’t involve bridges….no permanent modifications on the boat at all.

Have fun Smile




This message was edited by Coriolis on Dec-28-17 @ 8:17 PM


Stick    -- Dec-28-2017 @ 9:34 PM
  Re sea toilets and the Broads. I think you may find if you read the rules and regulations that all boats are to have a holding tank. The exceptions are Hunters fleet of wooden sailing boats. Yes, it was never a problem a few years ago but now it is. Don't forget you will also need a boat safety exam if you have a fitted berth, or an onboard cooking device and electric system.
Years ago when I had my first boat safety my toilet was checked as my boat came in from the sea, I'd removed the sea toiled and used a portaloo... But it was part of the boat safety then..... Course I may have been given duff gen about the sea toilets. I would check if I were you. Plus you may want to consider what keel is on the proposed yacht as a large fin keel may not be suitable due to water depths in places only being 4-5 feet. I have bilge keels on mine so mooring on shelving banks is a no no and care is needed when navigating on the rivers due to shelving banks. Watch out on mast steps too as a lot of masts can be lowered on their anchor point at the mast foot.... But I once saw a boat approaching Haddiscoe new bridge and they lowered the mast as they had always done with it pivoting at the stainless steel pin on the mast foot....unfortunately it had become worn over the years and slowly widened the pin holes until eventually the mount sheared at the pin mount and whole lot went over the side... I towed them into st olaves marina. Plus there are some alloy masts out there that have had tabernacles made for them and people have just drilled holes in the mast... Not a good idea again as pivot hole wears and mast breaks off at that point.... There is one at Landamores yard that sheeted off at the pivot point. Hope this helps.... For better advise especially on rules and regs, try Boulter Marine ( Horning) as they do boat safety there and are wise in the ways of the rivers. Happy new year!

Ex-military! Not a civilian!


Coriolis    -- Dec-28-2017 @ 10:37 PM
  Stick is quite correct about the need for a BSS certificate (unless you're visiting on a temporary toll), but that's true for all boats and wasn't part of the OP's question.

On the toilet issue though, there is a widely-applied exemption for low-freeboard and often-heeling yachts, to which it is deemed impractical to fit holding tanks.  This isn't just applicable to Hunters, but also the vast majority of the River Cruiser fleet of 400+ yachts and the few remaining other hire yachts.

This can be confirmed by a simple telephone call to the Broads Authority, hopefully avoiding a "yes it is/no it isn't" argument...

Valid point about water depth vs keels.....very few Broads yachts draw much more than 3'6-9" and only a handful draw over 4 feet....but again the OP's proposed boats all draw less than this.  Bilge keels reduce the depth requirement but as Stick notes, can restrict bankside mooring, and anyway also hamper turns when tacking....not an infrequent event on the rivers. If I was considering a production boat I'd seriously look at lifting keels - on the Broads there is no question of IF you'll hit the putty, only WHEN.

It's all good fun either way Smile





This message was edited by Coriolis on Dec-28-17 @ 10:43 PM


ChrisHGB    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 8:08 AM
  Have you considered converting to carbon spars? The dramatic reduction in weight aloft takes much of the mast lowering problems away.

Chris.

I have swallowed the anchor but
have not tried mud weight yet!


Stick    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 12:43 PM
  One of my New Years resolutions for 2018- apart from sort the bloody engine mounts out- is to go and dig my tabernacle and mast out and get mine sailing again. She sails fine down wind but tacks like a block of flats up wind, but,
as somone once told me, gentlemen Sail down wind and the engine is for up wind. Didn't know that about sailing boats but obvious now I think about it! But as always a quick phone call to BA will resolve the issue, better to get the facts and be compliant then run the risk of getting in the poo.... Possibly literally in this case! Lol

Ex-military! Not a civilian!


Broadreach    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 2:21 PM
  Hi again folks

Thanks very much for your advice. There are some great ideas there and I will certainly be consulting Mr Google’s searching website and the Broads Authority to investigate further.
In my first post I mentioned that I was looking for a yacht such as a Sonata, Hunter 23, Pegasus or similar, but I should have mentioned that I have already decided that a shallow fin or wing keel was the preferred option. It should have an inboard engine, or at least an outboard tucked under the cockpit benches (rather than taking up seating space) or an outboard on a lifting bracket on the transom.
The yacht should also have reasonable headroom, a separate heads, comfortable berths and space for a decent cooker and maybe a small fridge or coolbox.
It should also have excellent sailing qualities and be able to race occasionally and make fast passages on the Broads or at sea. I prefer to sail wherever possible and would use a motor only in a dead calm.
The only problem is I have not yet been able to find the perfect yacht. Perhaps I never will. Maybe it is not the right time of year to search, but I have been looking since August. It seems that good boats are snapped up quickly while the not so good linger on the pages of brokers’ websites.
I guess my years of owning fast wooden Broads yachts followed by later years of racing and cruising GRP sea yachts have tainted my search for the perfect Broads/coastal cruiser.
Maybe I should buy one of the delightful wooden Broads yachts currently for sale. I loved all the maintenance, replacing planks and other wooden parts, the sanding, painting and varnishing. But I did promise Mrs B that I would buy a GRP so that I could divert my DIY skills to our home.
In the meantime, the search for the perfect yacht continues as I continue to swot up on sea loos, BSS safety tests, A-frames, DIY pitch-poles, sway braces and carbon spars (now, I do like that idea, but would be reluctant to dispose of a perfectly good mast and boom from a hull that fits the bill).
If anyone hears of a suitable yacht for sale please let me know.

Cheers

Broadreach










Marshman    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 2:30 PM
  Presumably you have checked Topsail?? Pegasus 700 or 800 both available and both would fit your criteria! More room, pay more or less, pay less!
Job done!!


Exile    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 3:20 PM
  I would listen to MM.
Especially the Pegasus 700 and 800 which come with a variety of keel options. Simply choose one that you see as most suitable for your needs. They are obviously already on your radar.
These are generally not expensive boats to buy. They fit the bill ideally for Broads and coastal sailing.


Stick    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 3:31 PM
  Have you tried Appollo Duck .com? They usually have a few seagoing boats on. Classic yachts is also a good place but you being a fan of the wooden boats will already know that.... In my experience if you are looking for a boat that is already on the broads then March is a good time to look as its renew Tolls time and most marinas have their berth fees letter out too, so March is usually the time to find people deciding that the boat has got to go due to expense. If distance is no object and you don't mind a sea voyage, try Gallows Point boat yard by Beaumaris on Anglesey N Wales, I bought my boat there as I was after a distinctive type of boat but they do have a few sailboats cheap as they are projects that people have given up on. Dickies boat yard in Bangor, N Wales is also a good place to look for the same reason.... People with projects that prove too expensive or the wife puts her foot down. Or even E Bay. One note though on Appollo Duck..... The person who is selling the boat supply's the pictures and Appollo them selves don't check if the picture is current! When I left the military I went round in a camper van viewing all the boats if shortlisted and found a few were actually sunk and the pictures very very out of date! Ironically I found my boat 50 miles away from where I was brought up as a kid and u was only there due to circumnavigating Anglesy in a kayak! Odd how things work out. Good luck with the hunt..... Somewhere out there there is a boat with your name on it, you just have to be patient and maybe settle for so thing with potential rather than a hard fast it " must have" I was after a 60' fishing boat and ended up with a 20' colvic but, she spoke to me and I knew she would be mine and she had potential....

Ex-military! Not a civilian!


Broadreach    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 4:29 PM
  Thanks MM and Exile

The Pegasus 700 was top of my list when I first started looking but I am yet to find one that fits all my requirements. Any Hunter yachts based on the Sonata hull and with a shallow fin keel would be second choice.

Stick: Yes I am keeping tabs on Appollo Duck and brokers based on the coast and have been investigating a few boats which could be adapted for the Broads, hence the enquiries about mast-lowering gear and sea loos!
I guess March might be a good time to buy but in the past I have usually bought a yacht at the end of the season, then tucked them up in a yard's shed to spend weeks on finding new gear, making modifications and   completing thorough painting, varnishing and antifouling before launching at the end of March.

Thanks again to all for your help and guidance.

cheers

Broadreach



GW2000    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 5:52 PM
  Broadreach

I have an a-frame with an electric winch arrangement (see photo).

If you buy a yacht without an A-Frame as has been suggested you can get a stainless steel fabricator to make one for you, or as others have said, you can make one with something like a second hand spinnaker pole and strops each side that line up with the hinge point to create the "A" frame. Add a block and tackle and bobs your uncle..... I did this on my last boat as the foredeck was too small for a permanent a-frame.

As for toilet, although there are no specific requirements for yachts on the broads, I fitted a holding tank a couple of years ago - main challenge being space for the tank and all the pipework that goes with it. However it is possible to do. I think we will see more and more yachts being designed with Holding tanks as standard in the future.

Hope this is of help



Broadreach    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 6:22 PM
  Thanks GW2000

That looks a very impressive set-up with winch and mast in a nicely made stainless steel tabernacle. Your boat looks bigger that something like a Pegasus 700. Is it nearer 28-30ft? Did you have the tabernacle and A frame made on the Broads? Can you recommend a good stainless steel fabricator?
Having only lowered and raised counter-balanced wooden masts in tabernacles I have no idea about hingeing a metal mast or fitting one in a tabernacle like yours.
If I do buy a boat without a hinge plate at the mast foot is it easy to have one fitted? Similarly, if I have a tabernacle made can any mast be drilled to take the pivot bolt? I guess the area around the hole would have to be strengthened to spread the load and prevent cracking and dismasting?

This is all starting to sound much more complex (and expensive) than I thought.

However,I am determined to learn and avoid making any expensive mistakes.

cheers

Broadreach



Paladine    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 8:08 PM
 
Broadreach, this post from earlier this year should answer your questions about sea toilets.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


turnoar    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 8:41 PM
  Broad reach, keep a hawk eye out for an Evolution 19 or if the budget will stretch the next sistership up, 21 22 ish. Both lift keels from about a foot to five draft, and trailer sailer racers. They,re the late 70s equivalent of the modern beneateaufirst brand yachts and more akin to the class of a southerly swing keel if they ever did something this scale. The evo will out sail a horizon or Pegasus based on what I’ve witnessed. The other consideration is a Parker or a Jaguar. The westerly 22 is a bit more of a slouch on the broads but an excellent sea boat for coast hopping and with full beam accommodation albeit not standing headroom and a simple rig more akin to what the broads minded dismaster is likely to find undaunting.

I’m sure dufour or laser did something similar in the 80s but can’t for the life of me remember which model, there was one called whisper at hickling I think.

With a lift keel and lighter carbon rig and aero foil rudders and water tight windows there never been a better time to bag a bargain and enjoy the best of both worlds! Happy hunting but not necessarily in a hunter!


Broadreach    -- Dec-29-2017 @ 9:18 PM
  I like your style Turnoar

I might be a retired older gent but I do like a fast, efficient yacht or dinghy. In fact, I still enjoy racing Lasers, cats and fast two-crew dinghies during annual hols in Greece. Will keep watch for the boats you recommended. There is a Jaguar 22  currently on the market.
Cheers
BR





Broadreach    -- Dec-30-2017 @ 12:09 AM
  Paladine: Thanks for directing me to the link with the info on using sea toilets on the Broads. I think you have spared me from wasting a lot of time and money. Having read through the various messages it seems clear that sea loos are strictly taboo and anyone caught emptying them into the Broads network faces a fine of up to £2,500.
Instead of searching for a yacht to sail at sea and return to the Broads after an absence of 13 or so years I think I would be better off staying away or ruling out a cruising yacht. I had hoped to take my children and my grandchildren on trips around the Broads for old time's sake.
But if I have to spend a fortune just to spend a penny (plus buy an A-frame etc etc)  perhaps a nice wooden Yare and Bure One Design or Waveney OD or Brown Boat for day trips would be a cheaper and greener alternative. At least in a half-decker I wouldn't  need a smelly, noisy and polluting motor, just a pair of oars if the wind drops!

Cheers

Broadreach




This message was edited by Broadreach on Dec-30-17 @ 12:12 AM


Paladine    -- Dec-30-2017 @ 4:52 AM
 
Broadreach, it seems you didn't read the byelaws, a copy of which I posted last April. Take another look at the attachment in my April post. The restrictions only apply to vessels that use mechanical power as the principal propulsion source (and houseboats), so sailing vessels are exempt.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Broadreach    -- Dec-30-2017 @ 7:11 AM
  Ah yes, I see. I missed the bylaws bit. Thanks for pointing it out, Paladine. And good morning to you. You are up and about early. Are you always up with the lark?

OK, it seems pretty clear that sailing vessels are exempt, but for how long?

From reading the posts on this forum it would seem that many  boat owners believe the restrictions already apply or should apply to all vessels with a cabin, berths and cooking facilities.

There have also been comments from owners who have fitted holding tanks to their yachts.

Also, during my many searches of brokers' websites for a suitable GRP yacht for use on the Broads, I have found adverts describing how sea loos had been disconnected or taken out and replaced with chemical toilets.

I have always been keen to do whatever I can to protect the environment and even when sea sailing on yachts with holding tanks I have preferred to use shore facilities wherever possible instead of polluting a marina or river estuary.

I would do the same on the Broads, although in some areas shore facilities are few and far between.

All this has got me thinking. Maybe I need to change tack and buy a nice day sailer and be a completely pollution-free yacht owner. I would love to have another wooden half-decker such as a Y&BOD. I could race it and use it for family cruises.

And if Mrs B puts her foot down and protests at the thought of my DIY time switching to painting and decorating a wooden yacht I could look for a Yeoman instead.

Another possibility is to have a sea yacht for coastal cruising but to HIRE a half-decker or wooden yacht for occasional trips on the Broads.

Now that would seem to be the best of both worlds!

I shall now sit back and see what  turns up in  2018.

Happy New Year, folks, and thanks for your help so far.

Cheers

Broadreach











This message was edited by Broadreach on Dec-30-17 @ 7:12 AM


GW2000    -- Dec-30-2017 @ 3:34 PM
  Hello Broadreach

Its a white silk 28, so slightly bigger than a Pegasus 800. It was built by Martham Ferry Boat Yard (before the boat yard was re-developed), with the A-Frame and Tabernacle as part of the original specification. Its based on a Jaguar 28 hull with a modified rig and shallow fin keel for the broads.

Decks are substantially re-enforced around the tabernacle and at the bow + it has a decent layup anyway by todays standard. Its no racer but has very nice manners and continues to be a great family boat for us.

I think your best bet will be to look for something with an A-frame already. By the time you have had something fabricated, fiddled around with fitting a tabernacle and perhaps having to strengthen areas of the deck, you might find yourself spending a lot of money on something that won't add any value to the boat in the long term.

I bought mine as a bit of a project 8 years ago and have been improving it and replacing things on it ever since. I've almost got it to how I want it but there are always improvements to be made somewhere.

If you take your time there are some really nice older GRP boats that are either built for the broads or ex hire or have already been modified already and that come up for very reasonable money sometimes. Most of them are pretty well built to.

My advice - Take your time and see as many as you can and eventually you will find something that fits your needs. -

You never know, you will probably find a boat covered in dirt, looking very sad and uncared for, needing more work than you thought, needing more pockets than you have but it feels just the right one. Your other half is bound to think you are having a mid-life crisis, your friends will think you are mad and have lost the plot, but still something tells you this is the boat for you......

Also by looking at lots of boats, you will get a better feel for what will work and what won't and also what you can get for those precious earned pennies. Its amazing what a bit of TLC and elbow grease can do.

The other important thing to consider is what type of sailing you intend to do. Ask yourself:

What can I comfortably handle on my own if I don't have crew?

If you have crew - great - but are they likely to be there all the time?

Are you going to be staying on board or just day sailing. If the later, no need to have lots of cabins and facilities that will need maintaining even if not used.

Do I want an inboard? Outboards are so much easier and cheaper to maintain and you can take them home to work on when they go wrong. Inboards are a pain in the backside when they go wrong and can be expensive to fix if they have not been looked after (I've basically rebuilt my inboard since I have had it - It would have been better to have had a new one in the first place!!)

Don't forget to think about other expenses like moorings, insurance, winter storage.

Perhaps try the day sailing route to start with to see if you really do get out on the water frequently enough before committing to something larger.

In any case good luck with what ever direction you decide to take!

Guy


ChrisHGB    -- Dec-30-2017 @ 4:59 PM
  From experience, if you do go inboard then I would try to avoid sail-drives. They suffer like outdrives on motor boats with the power going through too many right angles. If they are not meticulously maintained they can prove very costly.

Chris.

I have swallowed the anchor but
have not tried mud weight yet!


Stick    -- Dec-30-2017 @ 5:41 PM
  Try this for info on tabernacles etc

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?217080-Converting-a-mast-to-a-tabernacle

Incidentally if you type tabernacle in on Google it comes up with the meaning of " Hebrew moveable church" amongst other things!

There are quite a few questions on the subject if you type in mast lowering etc.  

Ex-military! Not a civilian!


Broadreach    -- Dec-30-2017 @ 7:50 PM
  Good evening Guy

Thanks very much for your message which is full of very sound advice. Are you a counsellor specialising in yachtitis, the terrible infliction suffered by a sailing enthusiast who is currently without a boat? If not, you bloomin’ well ought to be!
Yes, you are quite right. I need to sit down with spreadsheet, clipboard and pencil and tick off my sailing requirements.
Fortunately, I have a long list of sailing chums and relatives who want to crew. Also, fortunately, I can sail single-handed. I also like the idea of day sailing or longer cruising.
Deep down I would love another wooden half-decker. Maybe I could get a wooden White Boat and tell my wife that the hull is GRP but made to look like wood. Sensibly I should go for a GRP day boat.
On the other hand, I would liker a yacht to sail on the Broads then out through Lowestoft to cruise to Essex and beyond.
I have thought about moorings and found several nice spots. I have even got an insurance quote for a Pegasus700.
I’ll try to make a decision on what to purchase by the end of this year, or perhaps during the first part of 2018.
I’ll let you know.

By the way, your boat sounds great and it must to be good to sail on the Broads and at sea.

ChrisHGB:
I’ll bear that in mind.  At least I can tinker with outboards but I have never had to strip down on inboard.

Stick: That’s a really handy website. Thanks for pointing me to it.

Cheers all

Broadreach







Coriolis    -- Dec-31-2017 @ 5:28 PM
  Broadreach, if you’re considering a White Boat but don’t want the maintenance....are you aware they’re also avialable in GRP?

Brown Boats come this way too....new is way out of my league but there are a few about and may rarely come up used too.

(Thinks bubble....would like to see how a Portapotti might fit in a Brown....)


Broadreach    -- Jan-4-2018 @ 12:42 PM
  Thanks Coriolis

I am aware that there are GRP YBODs, but I don't think they come on to the market too often and when they do they are likely to be way beyond my budget.
A Pegasus is probably my best bet. I've never sailed one but I understand that they are the best production yachts for the Broads judging by their popularity at Northern Rivers Sailing Club.
A sailing chum of mine is a big fan of the Pegasus but doesn't like Hunters at all! I've never sailed a Hunter (except the wooden beauties of the Hunter Fleet) but my mate reckons they are "tippy" and slow to tack. But I have seen a few good reports about some of them, especially the Sonatas.
I am keeping an open mind!

cheers
Broadreach



Sheque1    -- Jan-4-2018 @ 2:05 PM
  Should you decide to go for a day keelboat then a Yeoman is a good choice, there are a few around and generally much cheaper than other classes.
The Two main fleets are At Wroxham and Horning. My favourite is Horning.
HSC family membership is only £115 a year, it would give you access to the toilet /shower block at all times and the club house, although the T bar is only open when there is something on.
Our moorings are generally cheaper than anywhere else, Though to start with you would be moored across the river (club dinghy provided).
https://horning-sailing.club/
http://www.yeomankinsman.org.uk/

The Winter racing of Yeomans is controlled by a totally different club Snowflakes SC, which rent Horning for the Winters.
http://www.sfsc.co.uk/Sailprog.htm




This message was edited by Sheque1 on Jan-4-18 @ 2:09 PM


Broadreach    -- Jan-5-2018 @ 10:23 AM
  Many thanks Sheque1

I looked at the class website and saw that there are several very good yachts for sale. Very tempting!

Cheers

Broadreach


Sheque1    -- Jan-5-2018 @ 10:47 AM
  I've just looked at those for sail,
Blue Ripple is a good competitive boat I've been passed by her many times.

Y71 for £1000 is a bargain, Id be tempted to buy that, the biggest difference between any Yeoman is the Nut on the Helm..

The Kinsman I don't personally know, but Rutland do have a competitive fleet. you are allowed to race Kinsman against Yeoman in all races, the Kinsman has the better handicap.
I know there are other Yeoman for sail on club notice boards around the Country including Horning.


Cocklegat    -- Jan-5-2018 @ 12:52 PM
  I was interested to follow this thread, and can't help but add to it.
I'm a huge fan of Broads designed half-deckers and sailed a white boat for many years.
The first thing you have got to decide is what exactly will you use the boat for. Reading your thread you clearly want to sail specifically on Broads waters. Most small estuary sailing boats have to compromise on design and clearly while a few are suburb on the Broads (Pegasus, Hunter etc) many can't match a proper Broads boat in sailing performance.  When I say performance I am not talking about racing.  Earnest Woods took several attempts to get what he wanted out of the YBOD and he referred to it as his 'picnic boat' even though it was a commission to design a racing boat.  An expert on small half deckers having built so many starting at the age of around 16 when he built Terrier in 1896.
The result is that while not as fast as say a Rebel, the YBOD is a great all rounder with a much larger open cockpit , fin keel of shallow depth and fully balance rudder. Its a light weight boat with a large but very reefable main, meaning that sailing is possible in most conditions.  The mast is light enough for one person to lower and the boat can be sailed by one person. I was always told it would be a good idea to fit a self tacking jib, but I never bothered! In a breeze you can sail the boat without the Jib, however it comes in very handy when tacking in narrow rivers.
Having sailed most types of half deckers I much prefer the YBOD, even over the similar WOD.  A Rebel is great fun but it is primarily a racing beast.
Now to the down sides!
Half Deckers don't come with much comfort! As a younger man I used to camp out on my boat under the very useful cover.
However the sheer luxury of having a boat such as a Pegasus with cabin is a great attraction.  A wooden half-decker needs to be carefully looked after and stored inside during the winter.  I'm also not a great fan of the idea of putting wooden boats of this ilk on road trailers. They were not designed for it!  So a small estuary yacht or Yeomen in glass fibre with a road trailer is a tempting prospect.
However as a simple day boat you just can't beat the YBOD (Wood or Glass) As a day boat you can get where you want fast anywhere with the joy of knowing and learning that you don't need an engine, working winds and tides and carrying a light quant (essential) and with the fabulous bonus of being very close to nature.......... a low freeboard and being under sail gives you all that and more.



This message was edited by Cocklegat on Jan-5-18 @ 12:55 PM


Broadreach    -- Jan-6-2018 @ 11:45 AM
  Sheque1
There are some some fine-looking Yeomans around and the one for sale in Scotland at £1,000 does indeed appear to be a bargain.

Cocklegat
I had many happy years sailing my half-decker on the Broads. When I investigated her history I found out that she was a prototype for a proposed Oulton Broad One Design. She won a lot of races (and large cash bets) against YBODs and WODs before being blackballed by Broads racing committees for being too fast! No other half-deckers were built to the design but she continued to race in club handicap races.
She was very handy to sail and we very rarely used a small outboard we bolted to a bracket that could be hung from the main horse. We also used oars instead of a quant pole and rowed Venice gondola-style by standing and pushing the oars.
I occasionally camped on board for longer trips but after a while preferred to stop at hotels or pubs with accommodation.
At least a GRP production yacht would have reasonably comfortable accommodation.
Another idea has cropped up today after I found the Twitter account of a coastal sailor who also cruises on the Broads. His yacht is a fabulous 25ft Norfolk Smuggler, a GRP boat with gaff cutter rig, wooden spars and mast in a tabernacle. The Smugglers are expensive boats, but they do have the traditional charm of old wooden boats.
The search continues.


Marshman    -- Jan-6-2018 @ 12:35 PM
  Broadreach - even if the Smuggler was within reach price wise, IMHO just not suitable for the Broads!!

You do see one or two around but they are estuary boats designed for the conditions in open water - more heavily built and able to reef down in a chunky blow.

As a rule of thumb, and not really accurate, I gauge westerlies at about a Beaufort Scale less in the Broads than open waters - easterlies probably broadly similar! You need lighter boats with enough hull speed to get you through the tree shadows so faster boats are better and you need a decent sail area Interestingly the Rebel has a sail area similar to the Smuggler but I guess the latter, a true displacement boat weighs in about 3 times the weight or perhaps more!

The Rebel will ,in a decent blow and reefed down, show excellent speed but in light airs will ghost along without effort.

Cocklegat had the right idea - its all about horses for courses but if you want to sail, he about sums it up perfectly.


Broadreach    -- Jan-6-2018 @ 4:16 PM
  Marshman
Yes, I do want to sail whenever or wherever possible. But the perfect boat, to tick all the right boxes, is very much a tall order - literally!
It will need an ultra-high mast (Thames A-rater style) to keep sails driving in tree shadow. It needs a long 'skimming dish' GRP or carbon hull with shallow fin (A- Rater or Maidie-style)for minimum drag and maximum boat speed. It needs a counter-balanced wood mast or an alloy or carbon mast in an A-frame. For comfort it needs full headroom, nice comfy berths, a cooker, hot water, shower and heads, microwave (as in the latest luxury hire boats). And it must sail well at sea for occasional trips down south to Essex, Kent and beyond.
Definitely a tall order in every sense.
Compromise is the key word.
I am leaning towards a Pegasus but are they better sailers than any Hunter, Jaguar, Evolution, Trapper??
Are there any others that could be modified for Broads/coastal use? I have heard there are some good Polish-made yachts on the Broads. I would prefer shallow fin or lifting keel. I have ruled out bilge keel.

cheers

Broadreach




This message was edited by Broadreach on Jan-6-18 @ 4:17 PM


Cocklegat    -- Jan-6-2018 @ 9:08 PM
  The speed of a displacement hull is dependent on the waterline length.
for a YBOD this is 18ft WOD around 20ft Rebel again around 20ft. (Somebody once told me that different rebels are slightly different lengths !!)
Anyway I seem to recall a fig of around 1.3x SqRoot of the waterline length.

But of course it is not all about speed!


turnoar    -- Jan-6-2018 @ 9:54 PM
  Cocker is spot on, it’s also about pointing ability and ease of tacking. Missing from broadreach’s shopping list is the mg which I think were polish built, imported and sold locally, possibly Sutton staithe boatyard or catfield industrial estate. The fin keel version which sailed at hickling for a season sailed terribly and spent half a winter aground before disappearing altogether. A hunter 19 with a Norfolk punt rig had no trouble sailing through candle dyke.

The trailer sailers like the Parker 21 and 235 have done much better at the three rivers race than the other production boats but in all the bloodbaths at hickling broad regatta I’ve not seen any production boat keep up with even the sluggiest of broads half deckers.

Would be interesting to see a hawk 20 put through its paces on inland waters but at nearly 10k secondhand a yeoman or kinsman makes more financial sense.

I still think evolution before a Peggy having sailed both the Thurne and Bure.


GW2000    -- Jan-6-2018 @ 10:31 PM
  Broadreach

I think with one of your key requirements being the ability to go out to sea and down the coast occasionally, it does kind of limit the choices.

In reality as you mention you are probably looking at a Pegasus, Hunter, Jaguar, Colvic Salty dog or something of that nature.

Out of all of these your likely to find the Pegasus has the mast lowering system pre-fitted - else you will have to modify the others. There are others of course - a Barnes 28 yacht for sale in Lancashire (currently on Boatshed) which was built for the broads. Others to consider are some of the smaller Beneteau's - like the First 20 or 25 or the Jeanneau equivalents - BUT watch out for the rudder configurations - some of these have twin rudders which are not good for the broads and tacking as you are probably aware. But there are older ones with single rudders + they have lifting keels which is good for the East Coast, particularly if you want to go up some of the rivers like the River Deben at Woodbridge (I can really recommend that as a trip).

You then have the Sportina's and Delphias from Poland and there are a few of those around on the broads now. Also don't forget the Parker Yacht range. The smaller ones go on a trailer as well which is great for winter maintenance and again they have lifting keels.

Again if you want the ability to go down the coast, I think a cabin of some sort is a must.




Cocklegat    -- Jan-7-2018 @ 12:00 AM
  Well of course having a boat designed for the sea is an entirly  different matter. You have to compromise Broads sailing ability with any small sea boat by a reduction in thier sail area which is suitable for the sea, Boats such as broads half deckers, with the exception of Brown Boats which were designed to sail off lowestoft, are pretty flat bottomed,(Rebel not quite so) and  constructed very lightly and carry far more sail area than any sea boat....completely unsuitable.You can't have both!  
It's a difficult choice, the decision is how much to you think you would sail on the Broads and how often would you use the boat at sea. In reality if you are keeping the boat on the Broads you won't use it much at sea.  If you think that might be a possibility then go for the best small coastal sailing cruisers already mentioned.
The problem with sailing small sailing cruisers off our coast is that the relatively low speed of these boats dictates what you can do. With a favourable wind and leaving just before low water you can just make the Orwell in one tide from Lowestoft. Going for a day sail returning to Lowestoft (Or Yarmouth) is always dictated by the tide and getting it wrong means a long slog back, even using the engine.  A pleasant thing on a sunny summer's day but you need a boat that you have confidence in when conditions change, which they can do pretty quickly!


Broadreach    -- Jan-7-2018 @ 12:01 PM
  Thanks very much for your guidance and observations, folks. It really has been very useful to find out more about production yachts which are sailed on the Broads.
I am still wavering towards a Pegasus 700 or 800 but could still be swayed by a good wood or GRP YBOB.
I love sailing traditional Broads yachts and keep being lured back to them, despite drifting away to crew on Thames barges, to race high performance dinghies and yachts and also spend about 20 years cruising on large yachts in the North Sea, Channel, Baltic and Ionian Sea.
Now that I am retired I would like to be based on one of the southern Broads rivers but nip out through Lowestoft to cruise south for weeks at a time. I wouldn't do day trips from Lowestoft but if there is a chance of a few weeks away in good weather I would be off like a shot and work my way south to my old stamping grounds Southwold, Orford, Woodbridge, the Orwell, Stour, Backwaters, Colne, Tollesbury, Blackwater, Crouch, Roach and Thames Estuary.
One of my sailing heroes is Charles Stock who sailed his engine-less 16ft cutter Shoal Waters to most of these places from his mooring at Heybridge by working the tides and watching the weather. He did countless trips over weekends and was rarely late for work on a Monday.
My coastal trips will be short hops rather than trying to bash down from Lowestoft to the Medway in a day (although I have seen a very good video of such a voyage made in a Hunter Horizon 23!).
The rest of my time will be spent on the Broads, taking relatives and friends for day trips or nipping up to Norwich to see friends. We might even occasional head back to our former northern rivers haunts.
Plan A is now to find a good Pegasus or an Evolution.
Plan B, if Plan A fails, bite the bullet forget about coastal sailing and get a fast half-decker.
The search continues

Cheers

Broadreach






Marshman    -- Jan-7-2018 @ 12:20 PM
  To be brutally honest, I think the compromise may be just too difficult to make and with that in mind, you may be forced to make a stark choice!! In reality I believe the negatives from making such a decision as you are trying too, are just too great. So back to basics.....

Buy a Broads boat and charter once a year offshore to get it out of your system and or/bum trips with mates
OR
Vice versa!!!




Broadreach    -- Jan-7-2018 @ 1:00 PM
  Thanks for being brutally honest, MM. I have been agonising for months over whether to buy a yacht to sail the Broads or coastal or both.
Had I opted for Broads-only I would have snapped up a traditional half-decker or river cruiser in the past month, even though Mrs B doesn't like the idea of me spending valuable DIY time painting and decorating a wooden yacht! There are some good boats on the market.
Had I chosen the coastal course I would have bought a Sadler, 25, a Contessa 26 and similar-sized classic GRP cruising yacht and keep it in Essex or Suffolk. Again, there are some good boats for sale at the moment.
But a good Pegasus could be OK for sailing at sea and on the Broads.
I would go for a mooring close to Oulton Broad and sail only on the open and reasonably tree-free southern rivers, where a yacht's sailing performance is not quite so critical.
Several other owners of production yachts race on the Broads and also cruise at sea and I mentioned the video of a Hunter Horizon 23 which sailed up from the Medway, cruised around the Broads before sailing back home in a day (leaving Lowestoft at about 4.30am and arriving off Faversham at around 8pm).
I'll keep an open mind at this stage to see if the perfect Plan A yacht does loom over the horizon, but not necessarily a Hunter.

cheers

BR







This message was edited by Broadreach on Jan-7-18 @ 1:01 PM


Cocklegat    -- Jan-7-2018 @ 1:00 PM
  Totally agree!
The Broads are just great for sailing and there are is a lot of sense in hiring an offshore boat.........but chose the Greek Islands rather than the North Sea......although The Deben and Orwell are nice and the Iselmeer is also within striking distance.


Broadreach    -- Jan-7-2018 @ 1:52 PM
  Thanks Cocklegat. I am not sure if you are agreeing with, me wanting to hold out for Plan A or MM who says 'one or the other'.
Hiring is a good option and we will continue to have our sailing holidays in the Greek islands. But I don't fancy hiring a sea yacht in the UK as you usually have to book well in advance and the week or fortnight you book might turn out to be appalling, weather-wise.
No, I like the idea of having an all-purpose yacht and go sea sailing when the weather looks set fair. Being retired, it is a luxury I can enjoy. The only additional expense is the fee for locking out at Oulton Broad which, I understand, is more than £40 return.
cheers

BR



This message was edited by Broadreach on Jan-7-18 @ 2:38 PM


Cocklegat    -- Jan-8-2018 @ 10:20 AM
  Broadbeach,

Sounds like a good plan.  While I am a huge fan of small Broads boats, I was always impressed by the performance of the pocket type sailing cruisers which have a long pedigree in this country of giving great performance.  I am not a fan of bilge keels, although many moons ago frequently sailed the tiny Silhouette, both on the Broads and at Sea!!! This was a surprisingly good sail boat although far to small.  The southern north sea is famous for its short steep tide induced waves which are referred to as 'Chop'  Places such as the area around Lowestoft harbour can be pretty Choppy and the pounding you get between bilge keels, even on a nice day is very unpleasant.  Fin keels can have the draw back of their depth, for Broads sailing but are far better for the sea. The limitation of these boats not being able to 'take the ground' on east coast rivers, such as the Orwell is over stated.  Stick with either a lifting keel or fin keel of reasonable draught and you won't go far wrong.
Getting out to sea from Oulton sounds expensive, I had the good fortune of using the RSNYC when sailing from Lowestoft and once kept a boat at Yarmouth which was much simpler so can't say much about using Mutford lock.


Marshman    -- Jan-8-2018 @ 12:15 PM
  Aha - the famous North Sea "chop"!! Had to deal with that plenty of times - you either have a heavy enough boat to cope with it by powerig through or just "stop" - literally!!!!

When I sailed out there in a Westerly Pentland that could usually cope well and at such times it was more than a match for the lighter boats - drop the wind speed to Force 1 or perhaps 2, and they would disappear over the horizon!!

Happy Days !!


Broadreach    -- Jan-8-2018 @ 12:57 PM
  That reminds me of a very curious case of Lowestoft chop during a trip on a Hallberg-Rassy 36. We left the pontoon at RNSYC in glorious sunshine one early morning in June and headed south. A couple of miles to the south east we ran into dense fog but still had a favourable NNE F4, plus chop from the last of the ebb. We bounced around for about 30 minutes keeping a good listening watch for anything heading our way before the fog and chop cleared. We then hoisted the spinnaker and made good time to the Orwell.
The mention of a Silhouette reminds me of a fun trip my wife and I had with another couple in the late 60s. We were members of a dinghy club on the Blackwater sailing Ents, Merlin Rockets and Fireballs when a friend bought or was given a ply Silhouette.
He thought it would be a good idea to do a mini-cruise down river to West Mersea. I can't remember how on earth we all managed to sleep on board as it was bad enough fitting us all in the cockpit. I remember spending most of the trip as human ballast, sitting near the bow to keep some form of trim to the tiddler yacht.
Before setting off we thought the Silhouette sail plan was too small. So we took an Ent main and jib to hoist when we were running down river in very light airs.
I don't remember the boat performing too well, but the meal and beer we had ashore at W Mersea was very nice.

I have added another requirement for my perfect Broads/sea yacht. It must be capable of chomping through a wholesome Lowestoft chop. Sounds like a local delicacy - Not!




This message was edited by Broadreach on Jan-9-18 @ 12:32 AM


Cocklegat    -- Jan-8-2018 @ 8:18 PM
  I'm preaching among  the converted! Hallberg Rassy was once one of my dream boats!! Never got to sail one but have sailed plenty of good boats on the east coast. By the way I once got a good bit of advice from Tommy Knott in Lowestoft about how to 'navigate' from Lowestoft to Ostend. 'Boy', he said. 'Yew go right head with the block of flats in lowestoft dead astern, keep yew a'going and when yew see the block of flats on the bow, that's Ostend.  
He was right of course and sound advice, in that Navigation is an art and NOT a science, despite the (very useful) GPS you still need common sense and a bit of practical experience. You get the experience by doing it and learning from your mistakes.



This message was edited by Cocklegat on Jan-8-18 @ 8:18 PM


turnoar    -- Jan-8-2018 @ 9:23 PM
  Wow broadreach, I too have sailed a hr36 but out of the hamble into the Solent on a busy Saturday afternoon. Lovely sail and great to windward dodging cruise liners pilot boats etc. The owner let me take her back into the marina and she handled like a car, Mercedes Benz probably. Unforgettable and it’s those quality experiences which make compromising between sea and broads so impossible... two boats is the answer!


Broadreach    -- Jan-9-2018 @ 3:25 PM
  I've just been swotting up on Broads tolls and safety regs to see how they might affect my choice of sea boat to use on the Broads.
If I do go for a yacht around 26ft I think the Broads toll will be around £210 based on the length x beam dimensions. I guess the overall length rather waterline is the figure used by the BA.
Also, I noticed that motorised sailing craft cannot have engines producing more than 10bhp. What is the reasoning behind that?  Can a larger engine be limited to comply with this ruling?
I think I am up to speed on the safety regulations.

cheers

BR



The Norfolk Broads Forum : http://www.the-norfolk-broads.co.uk
Topic: http://www.the-norfolk-broads.co.uk/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=49&Topic=41473