Topic: Cruisers Stuck on breydon water could take days to free !


steve    -- Apr-25-2022 @ 12:55 PM
  More on yesterdays incident on breydon water and to encourage debate here and let the section it was reported in continue with broads emergency shouts ,

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/bid-to-free-cruisers-stuck-on-norfolk-broads-8919040

steve and vicky
( not a broads local,so my views ,knowledge doesn't count )


This message was edited by steve on Apr-25-22 @ 2:00 PM


annville    -- Apr-25-2022 @ 2:45 PM
  Thanks for that Steve It does add a bit more flesh so to speak, not quite sure why they would have to wait three days for tide to arrive But!!! Once again thanks . John


Cocklegat    -- Apr-25-2022 @ 3:50 PM
  Steve, I think you said "The Broads Authority is not a rescue organisation".  
Possibly then a distinction should be made as to what constitutes an emergency and what is defined as a duty of care to boaters. Am I right in thinking the BA had a boat specifically for assistance on Breydon? Also as a harbour Authority the BA should take more responsibility into assistance in a situation like this. Some more updating may be required here into the Authorities Port Marine safety code. At present this states: Liaise with the Police, Coastguard and other emergency services to ensure that the Authority’s personnel and resources are appropriately used in emergency situations. Take part in emergency exercises ensuring that the Authority takes a proper role in exercises and emergency response training. Prepare emergency/major incident plans. Assume the role of designated person under the Oil Pollution Preparedness, Response and Co-operation (OPRC) regulations. . [Note: This is not to be confused with the “Designated Person” identified by the Port Marine Safety Code.] Provide leadership and assume responsibility in incident or emergency situations including oil spill incidents. As appropriate, to be included in the emergency call-out list provided to police, coastguard and emergency services and, in the event of an incident, to attend and help mobilise the Authority’s response.



steve    -- Apr-25-2022 @ 4:29 PM
  " Steve, I think you said "The Broads Authority is not a rescue organisation " sorry not me , i think you're getting me confused with " dykedweller " post on the other thread ,

steve and vicky
( not a broads local,so my views ,knowledge doesn't count )


This message was edited by steve on Apr-25-22 @ 5:48 PM


Paladine    -- Apr-25-2022 @ 6:41 PM
 
Cocklegat wrote, ” Steve, I think you said "The Broads Authority is not a rescue organisation".  
Possibly then a distinction should be made as to what constitutes an emergency and what is defined as a duty of care to boaters. Am I right in thinking the BA had a boat specifically for assistance on Breydon? Also as a harbour Authority the BA should take more responsibility into assistance in a situation like this. Some more updating may be required here into the Authorities Port Marine safety code.”


Section 3.9 of the Port Marine Safety Code says: ”The Civil Contingencies Act 2004 provides a framework for civil protection in the event of an emergency that threatens serious damage to human welfare, the environment or security. Harbour authorities are classified as category 2 "cooperating bodies". They will be involved in the associated planning work, and heavily involved in incidents that affect their sector. They are responsible for co-operating and sharing relevant information with category 1 (emergency services and local authorities) and other category 2 responders.”

So the distinction is not made between what is or isn’t an emergency, but who is or isn’t an emergency responder. The Broads No-Authority isn’t.

In their towing policy, there appears the following:

"In accordance with the Port Marine Safety Code, the Broads Authority needs to lay down guidance for towing within the navigation area. It is the Authority’s policy that it will:

a) Respond to emergencies for recreational vessels if BA vessels are available providing that prevailing conditions are favourable.
b) In cases of emergency, tow vessels to a safe mooring or safe situation or recover passengers and crew
c) Maintain towing capability for recreational vessels in an emergency or access to such capability through a register of competent operators, for situations reasonably expected to be encountered on the Broads, and keep this capability under review;
d) Develop and maintain risk assessments of towing activities for various types of boats (e.g. day boats, yachts, etc) in various circumstances (e.g. propulsion failure etc.);
e) Ensure that Authority personnel involved in towing have appropriate equipment for the task, are suitably trained, and are competent;
f) Ensure that any third parties employed by the Authority for towing activities have suitable equipment and are trained and competent to the same extent, in accordance with the BA towing specification
g) Share towing information with other users or authorities via relevant fora;
h) Keep this policy under review as part of the planned monitoring and auditing of the Safety Management System;
i) Act in a proportionate and timely manner to address any perceivedshortfalls in this policy.
j) Require that towing of commercial vessel is in line with the requirements laid down in the Navigation Works Guidance."


Probably the most important information to note is:

”a) Respond to emergencies for recreational vessels if BA vessels are available providing that prevailing conditions are favourable

The emergency services respond come hell or high water, 24/7/365.


Been hit by another boat? Report the incident to the Marine Accident Investigation Branch’s dedicated accident reporting line on 023 8023 2527 which is monitored 24 hours a day.  Help to make the Broads safer.


JollyRodger    -- Apr-25-2022 @ 6:53 PM
  My firm belief is that there is much confusion regarding the BA's role as Harbour Authority, not least at Yare House itself. In its pre-JP days, the Authority employed a Master Mariner in the form of Mark Wakelin. Mark was widely respected across Broadland but seemingly not by JP. Perhaps that was because Mark knew far more about the Broads than ever did JP thus Mark took his knowledge and ability elsewhere, down to the Beaulieu River in Hampshire. His post effectively ceased to exist and he was not replaced. Following his demise, the Authority appeared to have ceased to be a valid Harbour Authority, the Navigation Committee's input demoted to that of a consultative body that was only listened to when it suited the official agenda.  

Jolly Roger

This message was edited by JollyRodger on Apr-25-22 @ 7:58 PM


Stingers    -- Apr-25-2022 @ 8:31 PM
  The emergency services respond come hell or high water...

Yes that's right and it costs the BnA nothing to have them covering the Harbour Authority's back yard. Given the expanse of these mudflats and the difficulty the BnA have accessing multiple groundings every year, they should be better equipped to handle these situations. In theory, breakdowns and hirers manoeuvring outside the marked channel should never happen - but they do! So, as a boy scout would say - be prepared.

Andy


JollyRodger    -- Apr-25-2022 @ 9:14 PM
  The BA did provide the Spirit of Breydon, a safety vessel that was clearly unsuited to the role, as were the 'office' hours in which it operated.

Jolly Roger


Philosophic    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 1:11 AM
  I can remember when all the Broads Ranger launches were fitted with towing posts amidships; and indeed was once towed from Barton Broad to Irstead following a mechanical failure.

Most people spend more time and energy going around problems than in trying to solve them.

Henry Ford


This message was edited by Philosophic on Apr-26-22 @ 2:14 AM


Cocklegat    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 12:06 PM
  First of all, once again, I have no problem with what transpired on this particular occasion and in particular no criticism of the BA to that response.
However there is clearly room for improvement with procedures in safety management. While the BA is most certainly not an emergency service it does however still play an important role as a Harbour Authority as laid out in section 11 of its SMS. Also ,under this system risk is based on the ALARP principle.  Two elements here, one is the likelihood of an event.......hire boat running aground on Breydon would be classed as "very frequent"(Summer) The consequence would be classed as "Moderate" In other words we frequently see hire boats aground on Breydon and the consequences might be moderate (possible one major injury) Under the system this immediately flags up an "intolerable risk"  To mitigate this the BA has indeed implemented various plans and systems (One reason we have such a good team at GY)
While not referring to any specific case, What justification is there to immediately engage the emergency services baring in mind that there is no or little danger to life and the simple procedure of standing by, passing a line and waiting for the tide would suffice(in most cases). This is a difficult call because any additional imformation where the situation might change could quickly require the resources of the emergency services to be brought in. Historically hire boats have always gone aground on Breydon and until recent years, there they sat until high tide where they usually managed to float free, no-one would have ever call the coastguard. These days we have instant communications, the people on the boat can speak to the Hireboat company the BA and indeed the Coastguard.  When we call emergency services we put in process a system primarily concerned with saving life, calling out a search & rescue helicopter must be hugely expensive and also pulls that service away from any other emergency. This is basically why procedures need to be changed probably with both the BA and also the coastguard.


steve    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 3:01 PM
  I think change will happen,  we've got to remember this incident would of been reported to MIAB,  due to past events,  tragic events, MIAB recommended changes to BA / hireboat yards , i question if the BA  have been checking the changes recommendations, no doubt there is still room for improvement around Gt Yarmouth,  breydon water area ,

steve and vicky
( not a broads local,so my views ,knowledge doesn't count )


JollyRodger    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 3:19 PM
  I was very recently talking to a person involved in safety cover on the Broads, he commented that in the past many boats that ran aground would have sat it out, so to speak. Now, of course, folk can quickly pick up a mobile phone and report an incident, which the authorities are duty-bound to react to. Apparently, this has caused problems in that more serious incidents have had to be put on hold, in effect to wait their turn. I am not able to verify these comments but the availability of an instant response via a mobile phone does appear to be creating problems. I agree, there does appear to be a need to review how incidents are responded to.    

Jolly Roger

This message was edited by JollyRodger on Apr-26-22 @ 4:22 PM


Alone1    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 4:01 PM
  Has the MAIB report been published yet? Where can I find it and what changes were recommended please? boat-sail

Bob Huppendoun

There would be no life without water!!!


steve    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 4:26 PM
 
Interim report from dec 21 ,can't find at the moment recommendations to the BA , they maybe in the interim report below

http://the-norfolk-broads.co.uk/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=22&Topic=44449

steve and vicky
( not a broads local,so my views ,knowledge doesn't count )


This message was edited by steve on Apr-26-22 @ 5:30 PM


Paladine    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 4:41 PM
 
The MAIB report hasn't been released to the public yet. The inquest, which has been repeatedly adjourned pending the report, is now scheduled for 23/05/2022.

Been hit by another boat? Report the incident to the Marine Accident Investigation Branch’s dedicated accident reporting line on 023 8023 2527 which is monitored 24 hours a day.  Help to make the Broads safer.


ruby    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 4:57 PM
  In the other post on this subject suggestions for alternative solutions had been invited. I tried to think of another area which has a lot of mud and came up with Southend.

A quick review of the local paper reveals mud rescues are a frequent occurrence with the rescue vehicle of choice appearing to be the rnli hovercraft occasionally assisted by inshore ribs and the coastguard helicopter.

I guess the main difference is they are normally looking for individuals or small groups NOT  an entire boats crew of 10.

That seems to suggest the Rnli should take the lead at Breydon although it may not be cost effective to run a large hovercraft for a very restricted need.


hedgehog    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 5:45 PM
  We regularly use these to rescue people from mudbanks on the River Tyne. Easily rolled and stowed and can be inflated quickly using a compressed air cylinder. Can be joined together to make a walkway from casualty to rescue craft


Cocklegat    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 6:11 PM
  Many local people will be familiar with the rivers Stour, Deban & Orwell. Plenty of tide, mud and plenty of pleasure boats. The big difference being the widespread use of hire boats on the Broads.  We all look forward to the MIAB report on the tragic event at GY. Without doubt this is a dangerous place.  Health & Safety in any field should start with the people directly involved and should work back into the management structure. It should also be flexible and easily changeable by input from those directly involved. Looking at the BA's Port Marine Safety Code I would say this was not the case. I also note that it is a rather confusing document that has a lot of stuff crammed in which would appear to be unrelated to 'Port Safety' I'm not the person to ask about what is required to make any recommendations on the subject of specific upgrades to improve safety at GY,  I was however involved with commercial marine safety matters and also for many years sailed small boats from just upstream of the Haven Bridge and have first hand experience of Breydon Mud!


Stingers    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 7:38 PM
  I lived near Weston-Super-Mare for a number of years and, as anyone who has been there will tell you, they have a vast expanse of mudflats which trap many people every year. They also have a large tidal range and the chosen method of rescue is a hovercraft (although I don't think they were using them when I lived there in the early 70's).

Andy


JollyRodger    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 8:03 PM
  It appears to me that the greatest problem is preventing people from running aground in the first place. Short of providing a piloting service I'm not sure what more the Authority can do. 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink' is a proverb that immediately springs to mind.

Jolly Roger


Karen&Mike    -- Apr-26-2022 @ 10:52 PM
  There has been some comment previously around the possibility of restricted hire boat passage through Yarmouth - from simply restricting first time hirers at one end of the spectrum, to completely banning the expedition at the other end, by keeping boats to the Southern or Northern Broads i.e. within the area the hire yard is located.

Could help a revival of the Southern based yards ?  As well as totally avoiding these expensive rescues, and most importantly - tragic accidents.

Karen


"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


JollyRodger    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 7:05 AM
  I haven't researched groundings and accidents on Breydon but one thing is becoming increasingly clear, many of those involved are ignoring available advice and information. Personally, I have crossed Breydon many scores of times, many of those whilst under sail or on a 21ft or 28ft sailing boat powered by a 2.5hp outboard. Effectively I have no option but to use the tides to my advantage, even if that has meant crossing in pitch darkness. In effect the tides are god.

How hard would it be for the boatyards to print off a weekly tide timetable with relevant advice and place a copy on each of their boats? Perhaps customers could be asked to sign for receipt of their timetable. Granted that customers can't be made to heed such advice but make it clear that any consequences of groundings outside advised times will be charged to the customer.

Jolly Roger


Jeremy-Aslan    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 8:29 AM
  Looking at the reports of the recent incident, it was hard to see any answer to the question as to why these particular two boats had ended up so far from the channel.  I recall a brief mention in one report that one boat had 'lost power'  -  does anyone know if this was the case?   If so, it may not be entirely thier fault  -  although instructions for crossing Breydon could include advice to drop your mudweight if your engine fails (which should reduce how far from the channel you could drift).

I was also slightly confused that it was reported that one boat was so far from the channel that a RIB was unable to reach it, apparently even at the next high tide.  This could be surprising  -  surely a hire cruiser would draw a lot more than a RIB?  Or had the mudflats changed with the tidal movements?



________________________________________________________
'We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty' (HHGG)


Karen&Mike    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 8:41 AM
  I too saw a reference from a rescuer that one of the boats had lost power - this was in reference to why they had to be rescued after the holidaymakers initially hoped the tides would refloat them but then panicking overnight.  Well that’s what I think it said. I’ll try and find the article for clarity.

I imagine the engine wouldn't be starting after exhausts or whatever became clogged up with mud ? So I’m thinking did the inoperable engine cause the incident or was simply a result of it…?

Karen



"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


hedgehog    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 8:53 AM
  It doesn't really matter whether the engine failure was a cause or the result of the incident. The exhaust normally exits from the stern so should have been above the mud. The cooling water intakes would likely to be blocked and so cause over-heating issues. Maybe part of the concern was that there was a 6 month old baby on board one of the boats.


steve    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 8:55 AM
  On all rescue reports , be it Hemsby inshore lifeboat and HM Coastguard, even press media ,there has been no mention of loss of power,
JR , a tide time table is in the skippers manual on all hireboats, ( or should be ) , i question if this gets pointed out on handover trails ? Then gets put in a cupboard draw forgotten about for the week, again tide times are printed in the broadcaster ,

steve and vicky
( not a broads local,so my views ,knowledge doesn't count )


Karen&Mike    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 8:58 AM
  Some quotes from news articles :


1. Coxswain Daniel Hurd said the cruiser's engine had broken, meaning "those on board were in some danger"

2. …. had to be rescued after two cruisers ran aground in low tide.The group of 17 all had to spend the night on the water before the early-morning rescue by Great Yarmouth and Gorleston RNLI.

3. Great Yarmouth and Gorleston RNLI spokesman said the alarm was initially raised on Saturday afternoon after the cruisers had become stuck on the mudflats on the River Yare due to an ebbing tide. The low tide meant a rescue was not immediately possible. The mission officially began at 4.50am on Sunday.

As news reports often get things a bit wrong I reckon points 1&3 above are most likely to be accurate as they are quotes from the emergency services involved.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Karen&Mike    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 9:05 AM
 
quote:"......
doesn't really matter whether the engine failure was a cause or the result
......."



Well I think in a discussion about safety when crossing Breydon,  information given to/understood by holidaymakers etc, how such expensive rescue operations can be avoided , and so on - it’s very relevant indeed !

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Cocklegat    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 9:05 AM
  That's really good information and sheds a bit more light on 'the reasons why'

The north side of Breydon is difficult to access from shore because of the North Drain, a channel running close to the railway line that separates the mud from the path, this is accessible by small boat for much of the tide but still presents the problem of crossing the wider stretch of mud towards the channel. Brings back memories of eel fishing in the 70's



This message was edited by Cocklegat on Apr-27-22 @ 10:06 AM


MandA    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 9:14 AM
  I thought I read somewhere that the fan belt had parted which would result in overheating and i think it was quite windy.
It amazes me what people take on holiday with them I had to have a double look when it said a rabbit.
Adrian

MandA


Karen&Mike    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 9:32 AM
  JR just to pick up on your suggestion about tide times for GY - I think this is one of the reasons our lovely moderator Steve started a thread on here regularly publishing the passage times so as to raise awareness and help holidaymakers who are reading the forum.

Every little ( bit of info) helps as the well known supermarket says! Lol. Well that’s the intention anyway.

I think that unfortunately as peoples common sense seems to be diminishing ( talking generally here not necessarily these 2 latest crews ) then sadly more rules are required to control and limit the dangers!  An engine failure for example is outside of a helms control, but ignoring or not understanding safety advice and tide times and Breydon guidance and channels etc is their responsibility and thus avoidable.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Luise    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 10:24 AM
  Late to this thread, but I was in in GY on Sunday and was informed about the two stranded boats and helicopter rescue early on. One boat was over a “hump” in the mud: one can only speculate how, driven at full speed, pushed by the wind with no engine power, is/was the engine damaged before or after the boat ran aground?

All irrelevant, it was immediately established that it would NOT be recovered on the next high tide. So other than leaving the occupants on board for the next couple of days, there really was no alternative to lifting them off by helicopter. Which was done smoothly and efficiently in the early hours, when I was there they were being looked after in the Premier Inn.

Peter


Hylander    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 12:24 PM
  Granted that customers can't be made to heed such advice but make it clear that any consequences of groundings outside advised times will be charged to the customer.


An old saying and true - you can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.     Some folk just dont want to know until it is too late.


Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


This message was edited by Hylander on Apr-27-22 @ 1:25 PM


Steve51    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 12:50 PM
  As if to highlight the the nature of Breydon Water, I've just seen on the regional news that a vessel sent to recover one of the hire boats has itself run aground.

Steve. CM1 and NR12


JollyRodger    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 2:19 PM
  Apparently, the boat that ran aground was the RNLI boat, a vessel designed for use in coastal waters. The Hemsby boat is pretty much flat bottomed, ideal for use in shallow water.

Jolly Roger


RedCow    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 2:27 PM
  Crossing Brendon is not a problem providing you cross at the appropriate  state of tide and stick to the clearly marked channels and don’t have a mechanical failure! If you ignore the easy to read advice in the skippers manual tide tables and prevailing weather conditions the proverbial has good chance of hitting the fan.I cannot see any merit in isolating the North and South other than to spoil the experience for the majority of responsible hirers and penalise the businesses in the South and make the North more congested and mooring near impossible !


Alone1    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 2:31 PM
  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0016vfw/look-east-lunchtime-news-27042022

About 3 mins in

Bob Huppendoun

There would be no life without water!!!



This message was edited by Alone1 on Apr-27-22 @ 3:32 PM


JollyRodger    -- Apr-27-2022 @ 8:05 PM
  Thank you, Bob, very informative.

Jolly Roger


Cocklegat    -- Apr-28-2022 @ 9:20 AM
  Slightly off topic but may be of interest.  One of the main transport routes in the old Wherry trade was centred around the lower Yare.  These boats had no engines and yet not only navigated the mouth of the Bure but also dropped down into the main Harbour below the Haven Bridge. These manoeuvres where not carried out by sail but by the judicious use of a length of chain dropped over the bow and used to slow the boat against the tide "dropping down" stern first. Doing this allows the boat to be steered. I had the great luck as a young man to be on board the Albion when this method was used to drop the boat down through Haven Bridge  and alongside onto South Quay. That was in 1971 and I suspect that it may have been the last time a Wherry ever did this.
Perhaps private boat owners who get into trouble on Breydon might understand that while they might not have power it is still possible to manoeuvre in this manner using a mud weight and adjusting the length of rope to allow the boat to drag and "drop" the boat down to a safer location before bringing her up to 'anchor'.  I used to sail on Breydon and we carried a rather large lump of iron as a mud weight  as the normal sized one never seemed to hold. Equipment would seem to be an issue in understanding what is needed for a particular boat.


MandA    -- Apr-28-2022 @ 12:16 PM
  Yes I think thats a very good point do these new larger craft need a larger mud weight they mostly have winch’s now.

MandA


steve    -- Apr-28-2022 @ 2:25 PM
  Bit of film , taken yesterday at breydon water
https://youtu.be/XJkJcRtZfR0

steve and vicky
( not a broads local,so my views ,knowledge doesn't count )


steve    -- Jul-10-2022 @ 5:24 PM
  Picture from Facebook today , another cruiser stuck this afternoon,

steve and vicky
( not a broads local,so my views ,knowledge doesn't count )


JollyRodger    -- Jul-10-2022 @ 5:28 PM
  Ideal for catching up on their suntans!

Jolly Roger


The Norfolk Broads Forum : http://www.the-norfolk-broads.co.uk
Topic: http://www.the-norfolk-broads.co.uk/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=22&Topic=44877