Topic: Boats usage from 5/11/20 ?


Wychelm    -- Oct-31-2020 @ 8:59 PM
  Can we use out boat after thursday


L'sBelles    -- Oct-31-2020 @ 10:10 PM
  Firstly, it depends what happens on Monday.
The media were broadcasting supposition for hours before the Prime Minister made his speech this evening as if it was being implemented immediately.
Such an event as proposed now has to go before Parliament for approval on Monday although I suspect in this case it shall be unopposed.
Secondly, it depends how you interpret "exercise and recreation". I suspect if you have to travel a hundred miles from a high infection area to the broads, which the BA have already requested that you do not do, that will be looked upon rather dimly. If you are local, do not engage with anyone other than from your household, and go for a cruise up the river and back without mooring up anywhere do you consider that recreation?
As usual the language used is vague at best and open to interpretation. Science has predicted this for weeks so why scrawl some notes on the back of an envelope on a Saturday afternoon and drop a bombshell that does not clarify anything beyond closing pubs, restaurants and gyms again?



steve    -- Oct-31-2020 @ 10:39 PM
  Government website updated tonight ,read section 11
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november#travel

steve and vicky
( apparently a moaner)


Alone1    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 7:27 AM
  Simple answer - no you cant unfortunately.
No-one should be leaving their home except for very limited circumstances and boating is not a form of exercise in my opinion. Even though sailing mine is hard work! boat-sail

Bob Huppendoun

There would be no life without water!!!


Paladine    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 7:46 AM
 
There is no “simple answer”. The restrictions must be read in their entirety, and applied to one’s own specific circumstance.

For example, visiting a public place is allowed, as is unlimited exercise. Nothing is said about what form of transport can or can’t be used to get to the public place. So, it could be argued that using my boat (moored a few minutes from my house) to reach a riverside walk is OK. However, overnight stays in second homes (which included boats the last time round) won’t be generally allowed.

Perhaps the simplest answer is it all depends...


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Dykedweller    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 8:24 AM
  Why do people have to continually try to find ways to get round the restrictions on their liberty which have been put in place for their benefit? We as a country are deep in the brown stuff and need to get out of it as soon as possible. The bottom line is that the Government is seeking to reduce the spread of the virus by containment, please do your part to help them and us by thinking of others and not just yourself.


Paladine    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 8:52 AM
 
Trying to understand vaguely-drawn legislation is not the same as trying to find a way around it. Every individual is affected in a different way, by different parts of it. And it’s for that very reason that I say the answer to the OP’s question is ‘It depends...’

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Dykedweller    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 9:00 AM
  This is not the time for intricately drawn up legislation which nobody will read, it is the time for a simple message to which people should apply common sense to comply with as far as they possibly can.


Hylander    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 9:12 AM
  March holiday cancelled because of Covid and now the replacement holiday cancelled because of Covid.  Is it really worth booking any holiday at all?

Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


ruby    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 9:17 AM
  I agree with Paladine.

The key messages are :
don't overnight,
don't mix households,
socially distance
and don't travel too far for your exercise.

Without trying to be too contentious it is precisely because people followed the government's earlier bad advice of eat, drink and be merry at Bargain prices that we are in this particular mess.(imo).


L'sBelles    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 10:11 AM
  "Government website updated tonight ,read section 11
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november#travel"

Thanks Steve. I think Section 1 is the one that provides clarity stating that you should only leave the home for execise or to visit an outdoor public space. The word "recreation" is not included as it was in the earlier briefing and since operating a motor cruiser is unlikely to be considered 'exercise' and it is certainly not 'an outdoor public space' that effectively knocks using your boat during the specified period on the head.



L'sBelles    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 11:18 AM
  "Why do people have to continually try to find ways to get round the restrictions on their liberty which have been put in place for their benefit? We as a country are deep in the brown stuff and need to get out of it as soon as possible. The bottom line is that the Government is seeking to reduce the spread of the virus by containment, please do your part to help them and us by thinking of others and not just yourself."

Forgive me for feeling aggrieved but if my wife and I drive 20 miles, go out on our boat for a couple of hours, and drive home without engaging with anyone else we are not likely to be spreading any disease.
However, immediately following the 1st lockdown there were thousands who jumped on a plane and went off on foreign holidays, we have students holding house and street parties with no protection at all (coincidence the worst affected places are cities with universities?), and we even had a barber in Ipswich who continued to cut hair without any PPE and he knowingly had Covid symptoms. Turns out he was positive!
These are the people you need to preach to.


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 11:36 AM
  Well from our point of view, it had been our intention to continue using the boat at least until the end of the year, weather permitting, not least to make up for the short and expensive season thus far. However, in anticipation of harsher restrictions, we decided we would winterise her this weekend. Friends also from outside Norfolk did the same in terms of winter precautions when they last left their boat a couple of weeks ago, in consideration  of being moved up a tier. IF we lived, as some of you do, within just a few minutes, then we would feel able to take daily excercise and be able to check on her if/when the weather worsened,  but that's not possible so a full winterisation was the only option.

I don't blame the eat out to help out scheme in particular for the lastest spikes , I'm afraid I blame all the people, many of them young, who just are not following the rules at all, on a daily basis. This surely must be responsible for a large proportion of the infection being passed around:

No masks
or masks making people believe that social distancing isn't required in shops as they come right by you
Constant mixing in households where of course there are no measures such as protective screens in place
Folk letting their kids have visitors at home (from little kids to teenagers) whilst spouting that "the kids are together at school so it's ok " and not realising the cleaning regime and other measures  make the school environment safer
Pubs and shops being unable or unwilling to challenge those who don't wear masks, or mix with other tables , gather in groups etc.
Students and young people partying all over the country
Protestors protesting instead of staying home, and ignoring social distancing pretty much completely
Belief in conspiracy theories that Covid doesn't exist/ isn't dangerous

I could go on, but the British public must accept some of the blame for where we are now. Those of us, and I know there are many (but not enough) who have followed the rules,  must be feeling almost betrayed. The Furlough extension  for example is no good to those whose employers made them redundant recently in anticipation of the scheme ending. And that's jobs in other sectors besides hospitality and tourism. People's lives devastated by loss whether that be loved ones or financially. It's a nightmare, especially for those in their 50's and beyond. I will say this tongue in cheek , but ...

... perhaps we should have previously locked down everyone under 29 , or more, and let the older generations have some life and freedom ?! after all they have less time left.

Stay safe all, we are living in what feels like a science fiction film (and don't get me started on the theories of HOW this virus appeared in the first place )

Karen


"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 11:41 AM
  L'sBelles - sorry hadn't seen your post. You make some valid points.

Monica - I'm sorry about your rescheduled  Broads holiday also being cancelled, and I know how much you were looking forward to it after having to give up your own boat after many years of enjoyment in retirement. Hope you can rebook for the spring and it will be third time lucky.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Hylander    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 3:19 PM
  Folk letting their kids have visitors at home (from little kids to teenagers) whilst spouting that "the kids are together at school so it's ok " and not realising the cleaning regime and other measures  make the school environment safer

Unfortunately we have family that quote this mantra all of the time.  Thankfully they are a long way from us and dont come visiting, otherwise I would have to say something.  It is as if the virus is a figment of someone's imagination.     They all duly went out to the pub on Sunday and the cinema because they would not be able to go out after Thursday.    May be its me but words fail me at times.




Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


L'sBelles    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 5:26 PM
  "May be its me but words fail me at times."

No it is not just you!
This is my point of frustration why even responsible use of our boating time is taken away by legislation because of the actions of the moronic few who cram as much potential virus spreading activity in before the lockdown begins.


Dzign    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 5:49 PM
  Just heard on the radio on the way home about a rave attended by several hundred people, who threw bottles a the police who manged to arrest the princely sum off two!! unbelievable.. Unpack the rubber bullets

L


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 5:50 PM
  Precisely  LB!  Have just made a cuppa and switched the iPad back on, and what do I see in the news  ?! -  700 selfish crazy brain dead idiots had a rave in Bristol last night  Mad  

Words fail me too. This is the level of intelligence or pure selfishness that we have created in many of our young people today. So many reasons for this which are too numerous to mention but these are the same young folk that some people want to give the vote to at 16! Lord help us!  

I truly do despair.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Nov-1-20 @ 6:52 PM


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 5:54 PM
  Two? Only managed to arrest two?!

We're doomed !

Karen  

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


annville    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 6:17 PM
  Hi It's impractical to arrest 700 people but not the two who organized it, and confiscated their equipment along with a fine no doubt which will have some affect. of cause what they should have done is what we did in Egypt is spray them with indelible purple dye then for days after any body with a purple face was detained, or they had to hide for weeks until it wore off and had to buy new clothes. John


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-1-2020 @ 6:26 PM
  Sounds a good option to me John. Because with no deterrent those in attendance will happily skip off to the next one they hear about.

We can't let 700, or the bulk of them, get away with it,  because otherwise that sends out the message that the bigger the gathering the less the police will do/can do to those who attend.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Nov-1-20 @ 7:35 PM


Puddleduck    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 8:24 AM
  Bring in the army with water cannon.



Hylander    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 8:53 AM
  Definitely and not only water cannon but a few armed troops as well.   I knew one day all this no discipline would come back to bite and this is the result.   Me me me me me attitude.     We need a police force that the public can respect and in difficult situations not to just stand there doing a 'risk assessment' but get in there and get on with it.    Criminals and ne're do wells have it all on their side at the moment.

Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


Dzign    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 9:28 AM
  It's the unsmacked generation.
Still prefer the rubber bullets but would settle for the dye.

L


Hylander    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 9:31 AM
  Ok but can it be permanent dye that lasts 6 months please.

Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


millerman    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 9:49 AM
  I seem to remember that when Boris was Mayor of London he bought a couple of water cannon from Germany. However, he never got the necessary permission to use them, so I believe they were quietly sold and have now been melted down into something else.
Maybe we could bring back the stocks for all those who won't do as they are told. Local charities could sell the ammo so that their depleted funds can be topped up.


Steve51    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 5:09 PM
  This is the latest from the Broads Authority.

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/coronavirus-covid-19

Steve. CM1 and NR12

This message was edited by Steve51 on Nov-2-20 @ 6:09 PM


Dzign    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 5:22 PM
  Private boats that are kept or used in the Broads navigation area or adjacent waters do still need to be tolled.
Now threre's a suprise please JP kiss my a**

L


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 5:37 PM
  I am aware of one large marina which has already decided they are shut completely from Thursday and have advised their berth holders accordingly. Locked up, no access. But no refunds either! Same as the last time the same business made strict and harder rules than those imposed by government.

Let me make it clear this is not where we moor, nor am I suggesting that anyone should look for ways to circumvent or stretch the rules which we all realise are needed in these dire times, BUT , if a local wants to use their daily walk  but once a week for example in the direction of their moored boat and check it's all safe and secure , canopy intact etc, then why not? They may even be able to do the same for those not so close by, as many if not most of the private moorings are not covered by staff or visible from a manned office etc. And this is not the Spring/ Summer as before.

Frustrated, again, Karen  



"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 5:47 PM
  Yes Dzign , cheek eh? Did you notice the patronising comments too, and the weak justification , with no mention of the hire yards having had special deferred terms. I'll quote it here for those who want a swift read. The poor English is not a typo on my part . The BA state:

"Private boats that are kept or used in the Broads navigation area or adjacent waters do still need to be tolled. We fully appreciate the frustrations of private owners have in not being able to use their vessels during this time. We ask for your understanding that tolls fund essential navigation works which need to carry on even if the majority of boaters cannot currently benefit from them."

Mad  

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Nov-2-20 @ 6:48 PM


REDKEN    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 5:47 PM
  Can you give us a clue Karen, my boat is in a large marina but I have not heard anything yet. I'm on the Northern rivers.


Paladine    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 6:18 PM
 
May I suggest that anyone concerned that they might be prevented from accessing their boat by their marina owner contacts their own marina, rather than relying on what may or may not be reliable information on here.

Meanwhile, the Broads Authority has rather jumped the gun on giving out their advice. All we have at the moment is guidance from HMG, which the BA should know by now, is not enforcable. Whatever the law might be, come the Commons vote on Thursday, it might be rather different. It's that enforceable law that I will be taking note of, not a non-elected quango's interpretation of it.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 7:02 PM
  Yes indeed, not for me to name a particular business here. I was using the story to highlight what happens when things are interpreted in stronger terms , or the lead is taken for example from what the BA decide to steer people towards, rather than actual rules.

And yes , the BA throwing their unelected quango weight around, again!

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Paladine    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 7:10 PM
 
The Broads Authority has got an unenviable record of incorrect interpretation of their own (bye) laws, so they are certainly not the 'go-to' source for reliable advice about national statutes.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-2-20 @ 8:13 PM


ruby    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 7:14 PM
  Yes indeed,

I find it quite ironic the BA doesn't recognise a boat as a method of transportation or that the Broads are actually a public open space .

It must be right you can make a short journey by water to reach a public footpath to undertake your permitted exercise


REDKEN    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 7:38 PM
  Karen you are a tease! As nothing is law yet, not sure why any decisions are being made by anybody.

One for Paladine, I seem to remember that it is an offence (Civil?) to deprive someone of their own property as in a marina locking its gates when there is no legal requirement to do so. Do you know anything on these lines?



This message was edited by REDKEN on Nov-2-20 @ 8:40 PM


Paladine    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 8:14 PM
 
REDKEN, you're suggesting I go into a minefield without a map?

There may be something in a marina's T&C which cover this eventuality.

The way a marina operates may mean it comes within the scope of being a non-essential business and must close its gates.

There could an actionable tort involved, but would the expense be worth it? I doubt it.

I would think that anyone creating a fuss in this situation could well be asked to take their boat away. Do you have another mooring lined up?

Of course, you could always take the option beloved by a couple of well-known boats and just camp out on a BA 24hr mooring for the duration. The rangers won't bother you  Evil Grin

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


REDKEN    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 8:56 PM
  Thanks Paladine, an excellent response and you seem to confirm my thinking even if it is a bit extreme in the current situation.
I'm just happy to live in an area with probably the lowest numbers in the country and happy to support the actions the marina takes to keep things that way.


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 9:45 PM
  Just to clarify - never was I suggesting that marinas should stay open now for those who do NOT live in the area, but rather for those who do.

I imagine as Pally suggests, that some general catch all within the T & C's will give the owners the right to make such decisions. I don't dispute that they probably can, but I do think it's another example of heavy handedness and after their previous harsh rules which went way beyond the government guidance, it would certainly have me looking for another mooring spot if I was a customer of theirs. I don't have the time or the inclination for businesses who treat customers shabbily, and especially when it's so dictatorial.  Just my view.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Nov-6-20 @ 10:30 PM


Stingers    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 10:21 PM
  BUT, if locking moorers out prevented them from winterising and resulted in frost damage, then surely some responsibility has to lie with the marina owners. That could prove to be expensive.

Andy


Dykedweller    -- Nov-2-2020 @ 10:56 PM
  From the Government website:-
Complying with the new measures will help limit the spread of coronavirus, reduce the impact on the NHS and save lives. They will be underpinned by law which will make clear about what you must and must not do from 5 November. The relevant authorities, including the police, will have powers to enforce the law – including through fines and dispersing gatherings.

Looks clear enough to me that breaching the guidance will be breaking the law. Let’s just stop whingeing and comply with the advice which is there to try and safeguard us during these difficult times.


Paladine    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 7:08 AM
 
”Looks clear enough to me that breaching the guidance will be breaking the law.”

That’s a good example of an oxymoron. Guidance is something that may be followed. The law is something that must be followed.

There are no sanctions for breaking the guidance, but there are sanctions for breaking the law.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Alone1    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 7:22 AM
  The guidance will almost certainly become the law from Thursday when the MPs vote. If it doesnt then we are all in trouble.
Get used to it and do what we are supposed to or this will go on for longer with more deaths and no NHS for anything but COVID.
boat-sail

Bob Huppendoun

There would be no life without water!!!


Paladine    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 7:53 AM
 
”...almost certainly...

Jeeeez! Confused

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Dykedweller    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 8:56 AM
  Paladine, it is just the same as the Highway Code which is not a legalised document. Drivers can however be prosecuted for violating traffic rules in relation to The Highway Code,


Alone1    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 9:18 AM
  Paladine - normal language use that everyone does. May not be correctly used in your eyes but you would pick holes in anyone and everything. getting boring to be honest.

Bob Huppendoun

There would be no life without water!!!


Dykedweller    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 9:36 AM
  I agree with you Bob, too much ”lawyer speak” and not enough common sense.


Paladine    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 10:10 AM
 
Dykedweller, I'm happy to discuss law with you all day long, but, as has rightly been pointed out, it would be boring for most people. But you cannot be prosecuted for breaking the Highway Code regulations. However, some of those regulations are actually backed up with laws, breaking which can result in prosecution.

For example, at traffic lights, the Highway Code says you've got to stop behind the white line, unless the lights are green (Rule 175). This is backed up by the 1988 Road Traffic Act, which provides the actual offence, the penalties and under which prosecutions are taken out.

On the other hand, you should give way to traffic coming from your right when reaching a roundabout, but any prosecution resulting from a failure so to do would be for careless driving, not breaching the Rule, the Highway Code Rule being used to establish liability.

To be clear, since the March restrictions were imposed, Mrs P and I have been extremely careful to avoid unnecessary risk to ourselves, or to others, as we are both in the vulnerable category. Our social activities have been severely curtailed, with little or no prospect of them being renewed any time soon. We have watched the antics of the 20-somethings cavorting in the towns and cities with horror.

BUT, we will not be told what to do, on the basis on guidance or best practice. We are in the best position to know what is safe for us and the HMG 'shot-gun' approach, is, IMO, woefully inadequate. Laws are irrelevant if there is neither public acceptance nor adequate enforcement. At the moment, there is neither.

I will wait to see exactly what bits of the current guidance translates to law, after the Commons vote. Then I will decide whether I will be able to use my boat lawfully.

I would point out that the PM, in his televised statement, said that it would be permissible to leave one's home for 'recreation'. That word was missing from the HMG web site advice. The advice is changing almost by the minute. It seems that confusion reigns. Hopefully, there will be clarity on Thursday.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-3-20 @ 11:12 AM


MandA    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 10:56 AM
  What is local travel in relation to angling and exercise ?
Adrian.

MandA


annville    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 10:57 AM
  You can however continue your holiday if started before lock down, BUT pubs shops etc accept food shops will be closed along with marinas where will you go/stay, your life your decision. John


Dykedweller    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 10:58 AM
  Paladine, that’s exactly what I said, rules, codes, advice, or whatever you wish to call them backed up by the law. If you choose not to obey them you will be fined etc under the law. There has to be the backing up by the law because of the lack of common sense among a proportion of the population. If common sense was more  common we might not be as deep in the brown stuff as we are.
Can I respectfully request that you take a stance of supporting the measures to control this virus rather than giving ammunition to those that are always seeking to find ways around the “guidance/law” that is there for our benefit?


Alone1    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 11:07 AM
  "where will you go/stay, your life your decision. John"

True - but your decision could drastically affect - or end - someone else's life.
Just do what the guidance says and hope it works and works quickly.

Bob Huppendoun

There would be no life without water!!!


MandA    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 11:07 AM
  Lots of people fish from the quay in the marina I use or from boats which come into the marina from off the river.
Adrian.

MandA


MandA    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 11:23 AM
  Is it not difficult to enforce the rules if there is a lot of ambiguity in the rules,I prefer common sense but common sense is not very common unfortunately ,yes we should all consider how our actions can effect other people .
Adrian.

MandA


MandA    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 12:32 PM
  Sorry- affect.

MandA


L'sBelles    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 12:57 PM
  "Private boats that are kept or used in the Broads navigation area or adjacent waters do still need to be tolled.
Now threre's a suprise please JP kiss my a**"

Perhaps the BA would find boat owners more supportive if they had the equivalent of the DVLA's SORN. Your boat is locked down in a private marina so you put it on a Statutory Off Broads Notice. Perhaps it is because the acronym does not work well that they will not implement it? Perhaps Statutory Notice Off Broads would be ok?
The argument that the Broads still need maintaining doesn't really cut it as the highways also need maintaining when they are not being used but you can have your roadgoing VED refunded. My car is now on its third period of SORN this year!



This message was edited by L'sBelles on Nov-3-20 @ 2:03 PM


Paladine    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 1:32 PM
 
Dykedweller said, "Can I respectfully request that you take a stance of supporting the measures to control this virus rather than giving ammunition to those that are always seeking to find ways around the “guidance/law” that is there for our benefit?"

You clearly haven't been reading (or understanding) my posts. I wholeheartedly support the measures to control the virus. My (and Mrs P's) actions since March are testament to that, but you wouldn't know that, would you.

What I will rail at is any attempt to brow-beat (or con) me into accepting unenforceable guidance as enforceable law (something at which the Broads Authority is adept), and I am fortunate enough to be able to tell the difference. I notice you continue to confuse "guidance" with "law".

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Dykedweller    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 1:37 PM
  You cannot compare the UK with the Broads because of the economy of scale. The number of SORN vehicles nationwide has minimal impact on the cash available for road maintenance whereby a similar system on the Broads would bring about a devastating cut in cash available for maintenance of the infra structure.
If a type of SORN was available, given that boating is a predominantly summer activity, large numbers of owners would only toll for the summer months potentially halving the income from private owners.


MandA    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 1:46 PM
  We too have since March been supporting the measures to control the spread of the virus as well as keeping ourselves safe both being over 70 ,it just gets annoying when you can see there is no common sense in the way the rules are being interpreted by some in authority.
Adrian.

MandA


Paladine    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 1:48 PM
 
Re: SORN, this is from the BA's web site:

"My boat is currently moored in an “adjacent waters” but has been out of commission for some time whilst I am carrying out repairs/restoration to it and does not seem to be covered by any of the other exemptions, will I have comply with the requirements?

You may be able to apply for an exemption for the requirement to pay a toll but not from the other requirements. You will need to apply in writing for the exemption. The exemption will only apply to vessels which are moored in adjacent waters and which are not in use for navigation, residential or commercial purposes, and are moored in order to be serviced, repaired, or restored. The exemption will cease to apply once the vessel is used for any of those purposes. It will apply only to boats in respect of which the owner self declares it will be out of commission for at least six months from the date of the application and for a maximum of one toll period. This exemption will also not give rise to a repayment in respect of tolls already paid. Any exemptions granted would be subject to random checking by the Authority to ensure any such vessels do not pose a hazard to third parties."


So there is a form of SOBN for boats, but it is very limited in its scope.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Dykedweller    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 1:57 PM
  Paladine, I am not confused with anything. I will comply with the advice given by the Government of my country given with the best of intentions for my benefit and for which I accept that if I choose to ignore may result in a fine or prosecution . I do not seek to find ways as to how I might avoid compliance and I would encourage others to do likewise. I will do whatever I can to protect life and limb of my fellow mankind at this difficult time.
I appreciate the good advice which you give on this forum but I am beginning to find your personal vendetta towards the BA a tad tedious. Take care and keep safe.



This message was edited by Dykedweller on Nov-3-20 @ 2:58 PM


Paladine    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 2:45 PM
 
Just telling it how it is  Smile

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


L'sBelles    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 3:23 PM
  "So there is a form of SOBN for boats, but it is very limited in its scope."

Not really comparable, though. SORN is voluntary and no reasons are necessary but what the BA offer is extremely limited and does not apply if restrictions are enforced upon you.

I understand that there is a difference in scale between the waterways and highways of the UK but the BA do appear to dictate with a heavy hand rather than considering a more sensitive approach may gain them better appreciation.
They could, for example, offer a toll validity extension for the restricted periods or even a token 10% discount which would not be prohibitively costly to them for the sake of retaining boat owner confidence but that does not even occur to them. It's continually "pay up or else"!


Marshman    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 5:04 PM
  Much as it will displease many people to hear me say this, the BA can ill afford to lose any more revenue! The loss this year of the 60 odd hire boats will have made a pretty big hole in the budget already and will have to be filled.

If you all read the Minutes from the NavComm meeting you will be well aware that the current Tolls computer is so old it runs on steam and the replacement of that alone will be expensive. The Broads are not really comparable to the road network and as far as I am aware, no other water network operates a similar SORN system. Please correct me if I am wrong.

That is not meant to justify the lack of it, at all, but I am not even sure the Tolls Dept at Yare Towers could cope without adding more members of staff - someone would have to pay them and guess who that would be.

The Broads still have to be kept open and even in lockdown work is ongoing with dredging being done in several places. Don't forget that the Broads are still a special place and whilst the toll is a major cost, I, for one, still appreciate it so very much despite that. It would cost me more to move to almost any other system and almost for that reason alone, whilst I do not like paying it, I still see it as part of the cost of being able to enjoy this special place.


Marshman    -- Nov-3-2020 @ 5:11 PM
  Incidentally, I agree with Pally's comments earlier. No sooner was the announcement made, than the BA issued their interpretation - could they not have waited until the legislation was actually in place? Surely it is not that urgent? Most people will readily stick to the rules anyway and whilst the odd one or two will struggle to winterise their boats by tomorrow night, are the odd one or two who cannot, going to be the cause of a huge uptick in local numbers of Covid infections?


L'sBelles    -- Nov-4-2020 @ 4:10 PM
  "If you all read the Minutes from the NavComm meeting you will be well aware that the current Tolls computer is so old it runs on steam and the replacement of that alone will be expensive."

If the BA tolls computer runs on steam we should all get one as it is extremely efficient!
Purchased my boat Thursday and first post Saturday I had a letter requesting that I part with my toll money.
So the notification of sale to the BA from the previous owner, action by the BA to tie up my details with the boat and calculate the toll payable, dropping the letter into the Royal Mail, and Postman Pat to deliver the letter to my doormat was under two days.
I wonder how long it would take the BA to action something other than toll payment to them?
The answer was over two months and 3 phone calls to get my registration number stickers to replace those obliterated by a repaint so that I could comply with another of their rules.
Poor, poor BA.
Don't forget not all Broads boat owners are retired on final salary pension schemes, some are furloughed (and don't receive 80% salary as the benefit is capped) and worse still others have lost their jobs completely. You may find there is a significant reduction in private ownership next year to compliment this year's hire fleets reduction.



This message was edited by L'sBelles on Nov-4-20 @ 5:13 PM


Paladine    -- Nov-4-2020 @ 7:25 PM
 
The new Covid-19 regulations that were passed by parliament this afternoon, and which come into force at midnight tonight, can now be read, in their entirety, here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1200/made

They seem to be easy to understand, are not as draconian as those made in March, and, so far, I have not found anything in them that precludes the use of our boats.

I will be guided by those regulations, rather than any interpretation the Broads Authority puts on them, although I will be very interested in just what that interpretation might be.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


steve    -- Nov-4-2020 @ 7:57 PM
  From BA Facebook page
" Further update to 5 November lockdown and the Broads

We and other organisations are still waiting for further details to be issued by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) regarding issues such as paddle sports, angling from vessels and night-fishing. We are expecting an announcement in the near future.

Regarding those who are already on holiday, the Government guidance has been updated to state 'if you were already on holiday, you should return to your home as soon as practical and comply with the stay at home requirements in your holiday accommodation in the meantime.'

The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) has advised the Broads Authority and other inland navigation authorities that ‘winterising’ boats and other planned maintenance by the general public is not permitted under the restrictions as it is not classed as ‘essential travel’. Under the regulations private boat maintenance businesses may still be operating and are able to provide services for boat owners.

The Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) has advised us that it is following current UK Government advice ‘Guidance for people working in, visiting or delivering to other people's homes’. BSS examinations will continue where it is safe to do so. The advice for boat owners is to continue to contact an examiner to arrange their boat’s examination as per usual if one is required. Current BSS Certification expiry dates are not being extended as they were in the previous lockdown.

Where a boat is not available to be examined due to COVID-19 related issues and a BSS certification is needed to support a necessary licence application, a registration or a toll, then the owner needs to liaise with the Broads Authority.

Finally, according to British Marine, marinas can remain open for business services including (but not limited to) boatyard, boat servicing and tenants. Chandleries and other non-essential retail can remain open for delivery to customers, click and collect and to supply the marine trade.

For further information about making BSS examination arrangements visit: www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination-and-certification/arranging-the-examination/

For full Coronavirus information please see: https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/coronavirus-covid-19

steve and vicky
( apparently a moaner)


Paladine    -- Nov-4-2020 @ 10:08 PM
 
Hmmmm, just a couple of points spring to mind.

"We and other organisations are still waiting for further details to be issued by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) regarding issues such as paddle sports, angling from vessels and night-fishing."

The regulations allow a person "...to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation..."

Try searching 'open air recreation'. The list will include such activities as camping, fishing, cycling, canoeing, kayaking, sailing and motorboating. All of these activities take place in the Broads. There is no mention in the regulations about the time any of these activities must take place, nor over what period of time.

"The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) has advised the Broads Authority and other inland navigation authorities that ‘winterising’ boats and other planned maintenance by the general public is not permitted under the restrictions as it is not classed as ‘essential travel’."

The expression "essential travel" is not used in the regulations, so DEFRA's advice that there is a blanket ban introduced by these regulations is more than suspect. There may have been local restrictions regarding essential travel under the Tier regulations, but they were repealed by these new regs.

RTFM!!!



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-4-20 @ 11:09 PM


Dykedweller    -- Nov-5-2020 @ 7:18 AM
  Restrictions on leaving home
5.—(1) No person may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse..

I have looked through the “reasonable excuses” in Section 6 and cannot find anything that says to ‘visit your boat’.

RTFM again!

For goodness sake peeps suck it up, it’s only for 4 weeks.



This message was edited by Dykedweller on Nov-5-20 @ 8:33 AM


Paladine    -- Nov-5-2020 @ 7:57 AM
 
It’s no good simply pointing out bits of the regulations that suit your argument. There are exceptions to the ‘don’t leave home’ restriction, which must be taken into account.

Private boating, in all its forms, is an open air recreational activity, and is permitted. As is exercise, which could be running for miles, or just walking a few hundred yards with a walking frame.

It is naive to expect any legislation to specify its effect in the minutest detail. I would point to the literal rule of statutory interpretation which says that, unless defined in the statute, the words of the statute are given their natural or ordinary meaning and applied without seeking to put a gloss on the words or seeking to make sense of the statute.



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-5-20 @ 9:03 AM


ruby    -- Nov-5-2020 @ 9:42 AM
  Just to make sure I have got this right.

I can drive to my boat and fish or exercise from it at its mooring .

I can employ someone else to drive to my boat and work on it.

But I can't drive to my boat and work on it myself.

Am I missing something ?

Graham


L'sBelles    -- Nov-5-2020 @ 10:16 AM
  "I can employ someone else to drive to my boat and work on it.
But I can't drive to my boat and work on it myself."

That's the way I read the legislation. Daft, isn't it?
A bit like stopping people going into outdoor football grounds but allowing them to group together indoors and watch it on a TV screen or not allowing single players go for a round of golf as part of their exercise.

Like many of these emergency Government Bills it is simply a jumble of knee jerk reactions with no joined up thinking. I see that Liverpool infection rates have been falling rapidly since Tier 3 was introduced a few weeks ago with Knowsley going from the country's worst to 36th worst area but none of the "experts" wanted you to know that prior to the lock-down 2 commencing.

In mitigation, my wife and I have applied common sense since this all started in March and have not socialised indoors with anyone other than her mother who we care for so apart from my restoration work having to cease on our boat for the duration of this latest panic we will not really notice any difference!


Dykedweller    -- Nov-5-2020 @ 10:22 AM
  Graham
Yes, you are missing the point that there is a nasty virus out there which is killing thousands of people and our Government is trying to  curtail this by keeping us apart as much as possible without impacting on our economy such that it would result in many more deaths.
We have two choices, do everything we can to comply with the advice given as far as possible or seek each and every way we can to find ways of getting round the advice. I choose to take the first option to try to safeguard my fellow citizens of this country, that is all that I can do to help.
For those that will start spouting the law:-
“Laws serve as a norm of conduct for citizens and act as a guidance of acceptable behaviour “.



Karen&Mike    -- Nov-5-2020 @ 11:46 AM
  A few observations from me:

Those who have followed  the rules and guidance will pretty much continue to do so.
Those who haven't , won't.
After varying measures with equally varying results, those who care and are interested, will inevitably question things.
And those who don't care, won't.

It may "only be a month"as DD puts it,  but for those who have now lost their jobs, in anticipation of the furlough schemes orginal end date, that month likely means another month without the opportunity for interviews, let alone a new job and money to pay the bills.
Those redundancies are not just in the hospitality and tourism areas either.

Those with a boat paid for with hard earned money, may be facing the prospect of having to sell that investment to survive the economic challenges they face as a result of Covid, so brusquely shutting shop as it were, at a marina for example, and not allowing access for even basic winterisation , is another blow. If that person is facing financial worries then to be forced to pay a business to do it for them may just not be a viable option.

These are real worries for many people, and to shove them all to one side because it's "just a month" could be seen to be almost as selfish as those who refuse to wear masks for example.

There are many layers to this, many different impacts, and lots of questionable rules, ill thought through guidance, and varying interpretations. It's inevitable there will be debate.

From a personal perspective, we've followed rules and guidance all year, not seen family or friends. We've also had some hard times to deal with as a direct result of Covid, and we will stay home now as requested, BUT I see no end to this lockdown loop until we:

a) have a proven vaccine
b) somehow address the inconsistencies in rules & interpretations, the lack of action against those ( groups and individuals ) who repeatedly ignore everything, particularly as this fuels discontent.

I'm sure we all want this to be over, however, it is simply inevitable that as covid continues it's march, the consequences widen and then concerns rise as the impact does.

Karen




"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Nov-5-20 @ 9:19 PM


Paladine    -- Nov-5-2020 @ 9:34 PM
 
HMG has today updated their guidance, which can be read in full here  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/guidance-for-the-public-on-the-phased-return-of-outdoor-sport-and-recreation

Points of particular interest to this thread are:

”You can travel for physical activity. Ideally use your nearest, local appropriate venue to reduce pressure on transport infrastructure. But you can travel to outdoor open space irrespective of distance.

You can go fishing alone or with no more than 5 other people.

All forms of water sports practised on open waterways, including sailing, windsurfing, canoeing, rowing, kayaking, surfing, paddle-boarding and the use of privately owned motorised craft (in line with the guidance issued by the relevant navigation authority) are allowed provided that the guidance on social distancing is observed.

You are allowed to visit venues like a sailing club to exercise.”


But it also includes the information:

"From Thursday 5 November, national restrictions supersede the contents of this guidance document, in particular where the document refers to Local COVID Alert Levels. This guidance document can still be used by those businesses which are permitted to operate under the national restrictions, to support those businesses to operate safely."

So that makes everything perfectly clear...doesn't it? Confused




"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-5-20 @ 10:48 PM


Stationerystill    -- Nov-5-2020 @ 10:28 PM
  I rang the B.A. today. They said I cannot helm my boat or winterise it but I can pay someone else to do it. I expect the engineer I will employ will be immune to Covid 19.

Malcolm Martins


ShannonJoubert    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 7:59 AM
  Good morning.
The information seems such a grey area.
The RYA says on Twitter:

@RYA
11h
@Sport_England has today confirmed that boaters in England can continue to exercise on the waterways during the current lockdown, so long as you’re doing so in line with Gov guidelines. Look out for our Sail Safe top tips in the coming days #StaySailSafe http://rya.org/uDD750CcNd9


Hylander    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 8:46 AM
  Thank you for the update Paladine but I am no nearer to understanding any of it quite frankly.   They are saying you cannot use your boat or stay overnight, but now you can use your boat.   You can go paddle boarding sailing and fishing with up to 5 other people (not sure on that one memory is failing)   Do whoever honestly believe that Mr Covid sits there saying oh I wont infect them , they are paddle boarding?   You are supposed to stay at home but you go drive to where for exercise, oh but you can really only go out to do the shopping.     Surely the more contact you have with folk the more chance there is that you will catch it and subsequently spread it further.    

We have to isolate ourselves from anyone other than our own household but how can you state that when someone in the house will go shopping and be near others.   None of it makes any sense.      

Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


Dykedweller    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 9:20 AM
  I don’t see any problems with the advice we are being given.
There is a nasty virus which is spreading from person to person so we must keep apart as much as possible.
Don’t drive for miles to take exercise if you can do it at or near home.
Go shopping as infrequently as possible.
Limit face to face contact with other people as much as possible.
Look for ways to abide with the guidance rather than for ways to avoid doing so.
Keep in mind those who may be going through gruelling illnesses and desperately want to get the treatment they need which is being threatened by the current pandemic.

Take care and keep safe and be kind until we can control this virus



This message was edited by Dykedweller on Nov-6-20 @ 11:05 AM


Marshman    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 9:50 AM
  In a way I agree but notwithstanding the info we continue to get from the BA, can I go down to my boat and use it as a form of exercise, as some would seem to suggest.

Thats all a bit academic now as its winterised but why cannot we get a straightforward answer to a straight question. Just out of interest the Lakes appear to be allowing boating - it says its the latest info but is it?


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 10:08 AM
  DD & MM I agree with both your latest posts.

And our boat is winterised too now , done in a mad rush due to the impending tier 3 which of course was then superseded  by the new 28 days lockdown.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


L'sBelles    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 10:26 AM
  I have been avoiding everyone as if they are carrying this plague for months before I am accused of being a "guidance avoider" but I think there are two inherent problems here:

1) Being on the Broads we are restrained by the BA interpretation of the legislation and by the fact that they had launched their draconian regime before the law had even been approved by Parliament says all you need to know about the almighty BA flexing their muscles.

2) By HMG's own admission, it takes several weeks for the impact of any intervention to filter through into credible statistics. Consequently, the Tier system introduced barely that long ago was never given sufficient time to prove or disprove itself, although as I have already stated it was having a noticeable effect in Liverpool, and any positive effect of this enforced lockdown will not become apparent until after it has ended and the idiots of society go straight back to their partying, holidaying etc.

It is not the virus that is the problem it is the human nature of a small proportion of the population that are unable to think for themselves and behave in a responsible manner. HMG need to dream up a plan to isolate them from the UK populous which is the only way to eradicate the virus.



This message was edited by L'sBelles on Nov-6-20 @ 11:30 AM


Dykedweller    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 10:52 AM
  L’Belles
I am with you 100%. The reason that the Liverpool restrictions were not allowed time to work was because Mr Hindsight of the opposition party always says that they are too early, too late, too draconian or not draconian enough. I am not being political over this as the situation would probably be the same if the parties were the other way round. We need more of a coalition mentality to get over this as soon as possible. We are all in this together.


Paladine    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 12:14 PM
 
L'sBelles, I agree with your last post, apart from: "Being on the Broads we are restrained by the BA interpretation of the legislation".

As the RYA correctly point out in their advice to recreational boaters: "While guidance sets out how Governments expect people should behave, the regulations set out how people must behave and it is the regulations (rather than the guidance) that may be enforced within the law."

Under the regulations only a "relevant person" can take any enforcement action, and for the purposes of this discussion, a relevant person is defined in the regulations as:

(i) a constable, and
(ii) a police community support officer.

So the Broads Authority, in particular the rangers, cannot enforce the regulations in the slightest degree, let alone enforce their guidance.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 7:52 PM
  So, this whole thing is now snowballing. Numerous  moorings providers are seemingly taking the BA interpretation and banning their customers form visiting or winterising.

This is absolutely appalling. The BA is not fit for purpose and this "leading" of Broads businesses  (or , rather ,misleading !) , and the resultant  impact on toll payers , is unforgivable. I have lost all faith. Scrap the lot and find another way to run the Broads.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


steve    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 8:07 PM
  Update from BA
" 6 November - Update regarding COVID-19 lockdown restrictions that affect boating activities

The Authority is aware that there appears to be conflicting advice published by DEFRA and DCMS regarding which activities are restricted during the current lockdown in England. The Broads Authority, like many other organisations is trying its best to interpret the guidelines in order to advise the public.

This morning we have again written to DEFRA pointing out the apparent inconsistencies and the urgent need for definitive instructions. In particular we are seeking clarification around paddle-sports, angling and the use of privately owned sailing / motor boats.

We will communicate any further information we receive as quickly as possible and ask for your understanding and patience during this time. Our officers are receiving a huge number of enquiries on a wide range of topics and unfortunately it is not possible to give detailed answers on specific questions or individual circumstances "



steve and vicky
( apparently a moaner)


Paladine    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 8:14 PM
 
In the meantime, they should remove their misleading/confusing advice from their media platforms.

No advice is better than bad advice.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


turnoar    -- Nov-6-2020 @ 8:43 PM
  Paladine, I note the your info re regs re PCSOs. Did Norfolk scrap them in 2019? Interesting as they clearly exist still elsewhere. I miss their visible presence. Thanks for the pointer.


L'sBelles    -- Nov-7-2020 @ 12:59 AM
  Yes the 150 PCSO's that Norfolk had were made redundant although I believe it was in 2018.
Apparently 59 were deployed elsewhere in the Constabulary with 30 of those becoming full time PC's.
Several of the Public Inquiry Offices were closed at the same time.
There does appear to have been an increase in anti social behaviour in the County (on the East coast at least)since their demise. Who could have predicted that?


bitterncloud    -- Nov-9-2020 @ 10:16 AM
  Karen, can you please point out to me where the BA in their guidance have told marinas to close? Or which specific part of their information suggests that marinas should close?

I am unsure how you have managed to blame them for the way that certain marina operators have interpreted the information.

Infact if I go on there website it very clearly says marinas can stay open.

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/coronavirus-frequently-asked-questions

Your source please?

Thanks.

Voice of reason

Isaac


This message was edited by bitterncloud on Nov-9-20 @ 11:18 AM


Hylander    -- Nov-9-2020 @ 10:37 AM
  As below

Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


bitterncloud    -- Nov-9-2020 @ 10:54 AM
  Thanks Hylander, so the BA site doesn't say that marinas have to close.

Voice of reason

Isaac


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-9-2020 @ 1:59 PM
  You need to read everything posted in this and other threads.  Marinas informing customers that they have closed after instructions  ( or advice ) from the BA is just one example.

In addition , I've seen two communications from other moorings providers that quote the BA interpretation and have told moorers that therefore boating is not allowed, etc. I don't feel able to reproduce those items here myself as they were sent in confidence. Perhaps a trawl of numerous moorings business websites will bring things up, I'm busy on work things at the moment.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


ShannonJoubert    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 2:48 PM
  An update (of sorts) From BA.
https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/coronavirus-covid-19


MandA    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 3:12 PM
  BA COVID advice updated today.
Adrian

MandA


Paladine    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 3:40 PM
 
The updated BA Covid web page can be found here https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/coronavirus-covid-19

To call it advice is a stretch of the imagination. More than 600 words are used, which boil down to:

"Instead we have been asked to “advise boat owners to digest and interpret the regulations and government guidance for non-essential travel and overnight stays to ensure they are acting within these” when considering using their boat for recreational activity."

Compare that bit of useless information with the pretty clear advice given out by the National Parks, RYA, Angling Trust etc., and it shows the BA up as a weak, indecisive organisation, which has fail to show any leadership and has comprehensively failed all its toll payers.

We're on our own, people. It's make your mind up time. No help from the Broads No-authority.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Paladine    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 3:59 PM
 
On 9 November, bitterncloud said, "Karen, can you please point out to me where the BA in their guidance have told marinas to close? Or which specific part of their information suggests that marinas should close?

I am unsure how you have managed to blame them for the way that certain marina operators have interpreted the information.

Infact if I go on there website it very clearly says marinas can stay open.

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/news/coronavirus-frequently-asked-questions

Your source please?”


This has just been posted on the NBBO Facebook page:

”I have now had contact with both the Broads Authority and David at Broadsege marina. According to BA "With regard to marinas, they are independent businesses and the Broads Authority has no jurisdiction as to whether they remain open."

I, therefore, spoke to David at Broadsedge and you will probably already be aware that he received an email from BA stating that the Broads are closed to motorboats which is why he closed the marina. He has been trying to obtain clarification from BA since last week and despite leaving a message they have not come back to him.”


It seems clear from that that the Broads No-authority is culpable.



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Marshman    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 4:41 PM
  It really sums up the BA - very happy to tell David that boats are not allowed out but not able to tell him that that information was not really correct and that there is nothing in the legislation to stop him reopening.

Just what you really need to run the Broads - an organisation who cannot offer you the guidance you require!!


bitterncloud    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 5:55 PM
  The BA did not say that the Broads were 'closed' to motorboats though did they?

If they did, why hasn't every other marina locked their doors?

Maybe Mr David could try phoning them again and asking, rather than locking berth holders out, waiting on an email and blaming an organisation which has no Authority to shut other businesses down for what has happened?

Amazing how easy it is to apportion blame than it is to use some common sense.

Voice of reason

Isaac


This message was edited by bitterncloud on Nov-10-20 @ 6:56 PM


Steve51    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 6:32 PM
  On the subject of marinas closing, I have just sent the BA an email asking for clarity on the situation. No ambiguity, if's or but's, just requesting a simple yes or no answer.

I'm not holding my breath.

Steve. CM1 and NR12


TerryTibbs    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 6:34 PM
  Brooms are staying open in line with yhe latest advice they have received.

Dave

if it is to be it is up to me.


Paladine    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 6:35 PM
 
"The BA did not say that the Broads were 'closed' to motorboats though did they?

If they did, why hasn't every other marina locked their doors?"


I think you'll find that many of them have, those with gates to lock anyway.

Richardson's Stalham, Marine Tech Acle, St. Olave's, Cator's Ranworth, Waterside Potter Heigham. I'll let you look up the rest.

This was the Broads No-authority's advice, before today's amendment:

"Day trips on private or hire boats are not permitted as this is non-essential travel."

They can't actually close the Broads, as there is a public right of navigation, but that statement is as near as they could get to it.



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-10-20 @ 7:41 PM


Paladine    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 6:43 PM
 
TT, out of interest, has Broom's communicated with berth holders about this and have they restricted berth holder from visiting  their boats?


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Paladine    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 6:51 PM
 
Posted a couple of hours ago on FB:

"The gate at Broadsedge Marina has been open since Friday-afternoon and will now remain open.Unfortunately the guidance we received from the Broads Authority has been very ambiguous conflicting and unhelpful please be assured that the well-being and safety of our clients and staff remain our number one priority. We apologise for any inconvenience caused.please continue to follow government guidelines

Tom Peart Broadsedge"


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


ruby    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 7:08 PM
  This sorry tale merely demonstrates the BAs folly of trying to interprate guidance before that guidance has been decided on.

Hopefully the BA have learned their lesson and will not try and jump the gun and exceed their authority  again.

Graham



This message was edited by ruby on Nov-10-20 @ 8:09 PM


Paladine    -- Nov-10-2020 @ 7:17 PM
 
ruby, you've just given me the best laugh I've had all day  LOL  Cheers

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Dzign    -- Nov-11-2020 @ 9:05 AM
  "try and jump the gun and exceed their authority  again"
Have we learned nothing, this is the one thing packman is exceptionally good at....

L


bitterncloud    -- Nov-11-2020 @ 9:13 AM
  I am afraid that unless my eyesight is failing me I still cannot see any statement, information or evidence other than screenshots from social media (which are hardly renowned for their validity) from the Broads Authority that:

a. Orders marinas to close or
b. Says that the Broads are "closed"?

For someone who enjoys speaking in such an authoritative and self-aggrandising way I am surprised that you aren't able to present any actual evidence to back this up Wink

It's a shame that marina operators aren't able to view the publicly accessible information on the Government website and decide for themselves, isn't it?

Voice of reason

Isaac


Paladine    -- Nov-11-2020 @ 4:41 PM
 
bitterncloud, your abrasive, confrontational style reminds me of someone. Been here before have you?

Yes, your eyesight must be failing, as you've missed the answers you seek.

I don't wish to play your game, so I won't bother responding to you again.  Smile

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


BELLA    -- Nov-11-2020 @ 6:09 PM
  Paladine, it’s not me, I’ve learnt that you do your homework first.
Still behind you. Cheers


Paladine    -- Nov-11-2020 @ 7:47 PM
 
LOL

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


TerryTibbs    -- Nov-11-2020 @ 7:59 PM
  Pally, yes Brooms have said they are remaining open and operational but they dont actually state whether berth holders are allowed to visit or not. I have e mailed you the document I received from them.

Dave

if it is to be it is up to me.

This message was edited by TerryTibbs on Nov-11-20 @ 9:00 PM


Paladine    -- Nov-11-2020 @ 9:03 PM
 
Thank you, TT. I note they are silent on the matter of using your own boat, so it's up to the individual owner. No problem there, then.



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-11-20 @ 10:04 PM


steve    -- Nov-15-2020 @ 12:08 PM
  A Shambles! From the edp
https://www.edp24.co.uk/motoring/broads-motor-boaters-demand-clarity-from-government-over-lockdown-rules-1-6930529

steve and vicky
( apparently a moaner)


Paladine    -- Nov-15-2020 @ 1:26 PM
 
Thank you, steve.

The comments section below that article shows very clearly that there are some who understand the regulations, understand the guidance and know the difference between the two, and there are those who haven’t got a clue. The media are somewhat responsible for the confusion, calling this the “second lockdown”, a term HMG has avoided using. This leads some to think the restrictions are the same as in March. They aren’t. They are less restrictive.

The Broads No-Authority (BNA) compounded the confusion by rushing out a very flawed interpretation, on which they subsequently had to back-pedal. They seemed more concerned with obstructing boating, rather than setting out a considered advice based on the regulations.

Others, such as the RYA, CaRT, Angling Trust and National Parks, seemed to have no such difficulty. Perhaps that is because they have their own legal advisors, who understand the situation in relation to their own spheres of operation, rather than farming it out. I wonder if the BNA actually took any legal advice before issuing the first statement. I very much doubt it.

Perhaps the Communications Team, who have made such a pig’s ear of it, should be slimmed down and the cost saving put towards employing a proper legal advisor.


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-15-20 @ 2:30 PM


Hylander    -- Nov-15-2020 @ 2:34 PM
  If this non second lockdown is less restrictive, how come our holidays have been cancelled.    It is not as if we are like pubs or clubs.  We would be in our own bubbles.   How I hate that word.

Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


steve    -- Nov-15-2020 @ 2:55 PM
  Is there a second lockdown happening?? The way it is out there it's life as normal, non essential shops have been open , even a hair saloon open down here where i live , let alone traffic levels,

steve and vicky
( apparently a moaner)


Paladine    -- Nov-15-2020 @ 3:06 PM
 
The restrictions this time around are less draconian than in March. But there are still restrictions, which, yes, include not taking holidays. Regarding some premises remaining open, there has been Police, and local authority, action against those who flout the regulations, but, unless there is something sensational, reporting of such doesn’t sell newspapers.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


This message was edited by Paladine on Nov-15-20 @ 4:07 PM


Dzign    -- Nov-15-2020 @ 6:40 PM
  "The restrictions this time around are less draconian than in March"
Agreed.. but they seem to be handing out a lot more fines this time than before, I don't have a problem with this if your behaving yourself then you won't get fined "simples"

L


Paladine    -- Nov-15-2020 @ 7:58 PM
 
More FAKE NEWS in the EDP - spreading more confusion https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/norfolk-sailors-return-to-the-broads-after-guidance-change-1-6931035

”Dr Mark Collins, chairman of the Northern Rivers Sailing Club, said this was “fantastic news”, and that the day after the change was announced spent “four or five hours” exercising out in his yacht.
He said: “We thought it was unfair that we shouldn’t be able to take our boats out as exercise, and just wanted some consistency from the government.”

On Tuesday, November 10, the Broads Authority updated their website to say that sailing, windsurfing, canoeing, rowing, kayaking and paddle-boarding had all been permitted as forms of legitimate exercise by the Department for Environment and Rural Affairs.

This is provided the “usual guidance” around social distancing is maintained.

“We understand we can’t use them to ‘travel’ anywhere, but as general exercise, we couldn’t see anything wrong with sailing as an activity.”

A DEFRA spokesman said: “Across all sectors, it is the responsibility of individuals and organisations to digest and interpret the regulations to ensure they are acting within these.

“Non-essential travel is not permitted anywhere in England at this time, including on waterways.”


This is utter garbage.

Nothing in the regulations prevents a boat being used as a form of transport.
Nothing in the regulations prevents a boat of any description being used for recreation.
Nowhere in the regulations is ‘non-essential travel’ mentioned.



"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-15-2020 @ 8:22 PM
  Even the "smart" motorways ain't run by smart people. Currently on the M1 in Yorkshire the messsge signs declare :

" Essential Travel Only" .

That was Friday.

I've been saying since the new restrictions came into force that they non essential travel isn't mentioned. I've had a few "discussions" on this with numerous people to date.  Wink  

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"

This message was edited by Karen&Mike on Nov-15-20 @ 9:29 PM


Forresters    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 9:49 AM
  I wholly agree with the point that many people view this as lockdown 2.  You only need to view the social media platforms to see that with one notable peddling out the same self affronting instructions to avoid their boat, listen to the BA and stay away.  

During Lockdown - the original, most of us did adhere to the requirements and spent the weeks hoping to be allowed back which we were in July for those who live miles away.    We are back in the halfway house of being able to use your boat for the day as long as you don't stay over on it.

No wonder though we are losing faith with the requirements.  Just this weekend there were massive queues to get into our local city's retail parks and a large garden centre and yet the poor retailers on our high street who strictly operated maximum of 2 etc etc are closed to all but "click and collect".  They are selling the same or similar products to those available at the garden centres or B&M etc.  Absolutely criminal.

Hospitality tricks in tier 3;
Have a bowl of chilli and drink all day
"There's a bit of a wait for food but you are welcome to order and drink"
Menu placed on the table whilst you drink in case somebody comes in.
Chicken and fries for 1p - bet that offer doesn't last after tier 3

The member clubs loophole.  In tier 3 because they supply not sell alcohol this wasn't banned and they all reopened around here

I'm totally fed up with the whole mess and how it badly affects those who play by the rules

The pace of life down there
suits us


annville    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 11:30 AM
  my son who is a bus driver went into John Lewis he said it was packed very few masks being worn and no distancing and all age groups, he turned round and legged it.John


Hylander    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 1:37 PM
  anville - that is terrible ,   someone should report John Lewis for allowing it.      We will never see the back of this virus at this rate.



Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


Dzign    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 4:19 PM
  Our John Lewis is only click and collect you cannot walk round the store

L


Marshman    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 4:19 PM
  Strange that - the Norwich one, according to their website, is closed and available only for Click and Collect.


BELLA    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 5:03 PM
  On the John Lewis web site it states that English stores are temporary closed from the 5th November.


ruby    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 5:26 PM
  John Lewis stores are indeed closed apart from click and collect. I know this because my son works for them .

Something about this story is not quite ringing true.


Paladine    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 5:59 PM
 
Unless, of course, the son lives in either Wales or Scotland. John Lewis shops in both countries are open.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


TerryTibbs    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 7:12 PM
  Not in Scotland Pally, they wont let you in a shop without a mask, much stricter than us about the rules than we are.

Dave

if it is to be it is up to me.


Paladine    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 8:17 PM
 
TT, I don't doubt that, but the report was that this particular branch of John Lewis wasn't being strict. As the English branches are closed, one can only presume the one in question wasn't in England.

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


TerryTibbs    -- Nov-16-2020 @ 8:21 PM
  I know, I was pointing out it wouldn't be Scotland either. Smile

Dave

if it is to be it is up to me.


MandA    -- Nov-19-2020 @ 11:01 AM
  Out of interest who’s marinas/moorings are open and who’s are closed.
Adrian.

MandA


Paladine    -- Nov-19-2020 @ 1:19 PM
 
Sutton Staithe Boatyard - OPEN

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Dzign    -- Nov-19-2020 @ 1:47 PM
  BB

L


Paladine    -- Nov-19-2020 @ 2:24 PM
 
Is that Barnes Brinkraft or Broom's Boatyard - and are they open or shut, please?

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Bluebell    -- Nov-19-2020 @ 4:40 PM
  Herbert Woods are open and working as normal (apart from hiring!)


MandA    -- Nov-19-2020 @ 5:21 PM
  I was meaning which ones are open to boat owners.Adrian.

MandA


Dzign    -- Nov-19-2020 @ 5:47 PM
  Barnes

L


Hylander    -- Nov-20-2020 @ 3:06 PM
  Saw this and my heart leapt ,  oh but probably only an engineer taking a boat on a trial run after a problem.  If only it could have been the start of holidays once more.

Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


Hylander    -- Nov-20-2020 @ 3:07 PM
  Would be good if they had been heading for the pub.  Oh we can all dream.

Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


This message was edited by Hylander on Nov-20-20 @ 4:08 PM


JohnP.    -- Nov-25-2020 @ 3:27 PM
  We cruised from Horning to South Walsham and then on to Malthouse and then back to Horning on Sunday 22nd, counted 15-16 private powered craft and 4 sailcraft, like the BA say - its how you interpret the guidance, incidentally we didn't see any authorities afloat.

John.

ps...we are livaboards so we're out legitimately.

Regards

John.


Paladine    -- Nov-25-2020 @ 6:26 PM
 
”ps...we are livaboards so we're out legitimately.”

As has been pointed out on every social media platform I’ve read, all private boaters are allowed to use their boats for exercise and/or recreation, not just liveaboards.

I’m out in my motor cruiser most weekends and sometimes during the week. Have seen and spoken to rangers on several occasions and my presence out on the Broads has never been mentioned, far less challenged.


"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


flonker    -- Nov-25-2020 @ 6:41 PM
  It has to be said that if I had covid on my boat and kept alone I would be of no risk to anybody.

If I did not have covid but I was vulnerable I can think of no where safer than on a boat on a wild mooring or cruising down a river.

I am elderly. I am vulnerable. Very much at risk.

Please allow me to make an informed decision.


Dwile Flonker


Marshman    -- Nov-25-2020 @ 8:55 PM
  See Pallys post - you just cannot overnight at the moment, partly as I guess that would "overlap" into second homesscenario.


Hylander    -- Nov-26-2020 @ 8:52 AM
  Wondered if anyone would start to mention about holiday homes that have been hit hard , along with the hire boats.

Women dont nag they just
point
things out...



M


Marshman    -- Nov-26-2020 @ 9:09 AM
  Short term not worried especialy about either - lets worry about the BA trying, illegally but unsuccessfully, to keep us away from our own boats even to do maintenance!!!!!!!


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-26-2020 @ 10:54 AM
  Absolutely Marshman!

For us personally we also had the distances and requirements around them to follow, throughout the various restrictions. However, the BA (or rather the BNA !) have dealt with this all so badly, and to such an extent they have also influenced businesses to impose restrictions to curtail boaters activities too!

Karen



"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


Paladine    -- Nov-26-2020 @ 12:17 PM
 
K&M, I'm pleased to see you noted my rebranding of the Broads Authority as the Broads No-Authority  (BNA) a couple of weeks ago, after their ridiculous attempt to try to prevent us from, lawfully, using our boats. Cheers

It's a more accurate descriptor than BNP!  Exterminate

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Marshman    -- Nov-26-2020 @ 12:49 PM
  Did have a good mornings fishing today - trouble is I found I had no bait, but nonethless dangled my line in the water ever hopeful, whilst I found something better to do!!!!


Dzign    -- Nov-26-2020 @ 5:26 PM
  BNA like it was wondering and didn't like to ask...

L


Paladine    -- Nov-26-2020 @ 5:50 PM
 
LOL  

"..for the avoidance of any doubt, the broads are not legally a national park and do not come under the national park legislation, and nor will they."
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for DEFRA (Hansard 2015)


Dzign    -- Nov-26-2020 @ 5:54 PM
  It will be bna for me they don't deserve to be in capitals..
Maybe bNa would work for me. Lol
Edited cos predictive txt can be as useless as the bNa

L

This message was edited by Dzign on Nov-26-20 @ 7:25 PM


Karen&Mike    -- Nov-26-2020 @ 9:03 PM
  Haha. I like that - the emphasis being on the N to signify the importance of NO". Excellent.

Karen

"Wind up the elastic band Karen - we're setting off!!"


The Norfolk Broads Forum : http://www.the-norfolk-broads.co.uk
Topic: http://www.the-norfolk-broads.co.uk/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=22&Topic=43939